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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.

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[#1] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 5:00:01 PM
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rafter joists pulling away from ridge board. fixable? this is a 2 by 6 on 24-inch center roof and ceiling joist assembly. Looks like about 12,3 roof line. Almost everyone of these roof members are pulling away from the ridge. And all are on one side of a simple gable house. The side pulling away was an add-on. I notice no signs of dishing or sag in the roof or ridge from the outside. No signs of spread under the eaves or on the interior. Tthere are dwarf walls supporting the foof joists that appear to be afterthoughts. The purlins look original.

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41.27 KBThe roof from the top feels solid. Would collar ties help at this point?This definitely looks less than acceptable. I know, I would not throw down the cash for it.

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#2] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 5:26:15 PM
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Were the ceiling joists properly tied to the top plate? (were walls plumb)

Is the roof sheathing pulled away at the ridge, or just the rafters?

Perhaps they rafters were all cut too short?

No matter what, I wouldn't specify repairs on this one-- it would be pawned off.

My bet is that the rafters were cut too short.

Brandon

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#3] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 5:39:49 PM
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the walls are plumb and no sheathing seperation. You can see the nails that have been pulled out...
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#4] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 5:56:58 PM
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Everything's repairable, but simple solutions are probably not the right one's for this job.

I'd punt this one to anyone that would take it.


Kurt in Chicago

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#5] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 6:04:39 PM
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Quote: You can see the nails that have been pulled out...


In the pictures, I see nails spanning across to the ridge board, but that doesn't mean someone didn't just install them that way. I see gaps all of the time.... not nearly as bad though. If they built it this way, all they would have had to do was install a thicker ridge board.......

For the rafters to somehow pull directly away from the ridge board like that, the sheathing would have to follow, assuming it's actually nailed to the rafters and the sheathing wasn't replaced.

Brandon

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#6] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 7:07:22 PM
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What about rafter hangers? You can secure them to the ridge board and they should secure the rafters from pulling away. They'd be just like adding joist hangers.

http://www.strongtie.com/graph.../LSU.gif


Just a thought.

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#7] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 7:14:21 PM
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If this condition were due to the rafters spreading, the rafters would be tight against the top of the ridge board and away at the bottom. The vertical supports resist spread or sag, but they may have become a fulcrum, which has actually raised the ends of the rafters up and away. This third possibility would produce a less extreme angle between the rafter ends and the ridge board - consistent with what we see here.

Ouside of sistering the rafters, what else could one do? Fortunately, they don't have a real hard life unless a lot of snow gets dumped on them.

Believe it or not, a repair like this (technically) requires a building permit and inspections.

"This above all: to thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#8] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 8:51:23 PM
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Quote: Ouside of sistering the rafters, what else could one do?


A full length ridge beam.. Required to be installed by the "contractor" who installed the rafters too short. All work done free of charge to the homeowner. That'll teach him.

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#9] Posted: 10/06/2010 - 9:07:13 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by mgbinspect
Ouside of sistering the rafters, what else could one do? Fortunately, they don't have a real hard life unless a lot of snow gets dumped on them.


I have a novel idea....Take the entire roof assembly off....then build a new one. Think that'll work?

You gotta sock it to them sometimes. Yeah, Ok, I did have a hard day. Builder threatened my office because I failed a USDA_RD inspection that had non ICC-rated cans immersed within insulation.

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#10] Posted: 10/07/2010 - 05:02:17 AM
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Am I the only one that thinks that already happened? The ridge is weathered quite severely, as are the top and bottom plates of that knee wall and the bottom plate of the ridge support wall. In the second pic the rafters look like they are cut at different angles as well as varying lengths. Something happened to that roof frame, and some one who shouldn't have, "fixed" it.

I looked at a house a few years ago that had all but the bottom chords of the site built trusses cut away and replaced with new rafters and sheathing, and on different centers no less. People who don't have a clue take stuff apart all the time.

Tom

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#11] Posted: 10/08/2010 - 9:33:46 PM
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If Barney Fife traded in his law badge for an ASHI badge, he might be the definitive deal killer. No matter how you approach this roof framing mess, it's a tear off and do over. Another way of expressing this to a client opens the door for misunderstanding. (I can hear Barney yelling, "tear it off")
Dale McNutt
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#12] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 06:05:12 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by Dale McNutt

If Barney Fife traded in his law badge for an ASHI badge, he might be the definitive deal killer. No matter how you approach this roof framing mess, it's a tear off and do over. Another way of expressing this to a client opens the door for misunderstanding. (I can hear Barney yelling, "tear it off")


That's a perfect example of why Barney should be labeled a deal killer.

There's no reason it can't be fixed. It might be a pain in the ass and it might not be pretty or by the book. But then again, it ain't the family room.

A carpenter with half of an imagination ought to be able to lock that back up. Tearing it off and starting over seems a little extreme from what I can see.

I'm Gary Blum and I approve this message

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#13] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 06:47:21 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by gtblum

Quote: Originally posted by Dale McNutt

If Barney Fife traded in his law badge for an ASHI badge, he might be the definitive deal killer. No matter how you approach this roof framing mess, it's a tear off and do over. Another way of expressing this to a client opens the door for misunderstanding. (I can hear Barney yelling, "tear it off")


That's a perfect example of why Barney should be labeled a deal killer.

There's no reason it can't be fixed. It might be a pain in the ass and it might not be pretty or by the book. But then again, it ain't the family room.

A carpenter with half of an imagination ought to be able to lock that back up. Tearing it off and starting over seems a little extreme from what I can see.



Agreed. Frankly, sometimes we home inspectors become lost in a black and white world - seeing everything as simply right or wrong.

When I run across a situation like this, I call my clients and agent together and discuss the whole affair. (I only include the agent so they will understand the thought process and the buyer’s ultimate decision. After all, having been a Realtor myself, they represent the buyer and need to be able to do so accurately.) We consider the problem, the possible solutions, and the real benefit of each. I always attempt to highlight the point, beyond which, the return for the repair effort becomes mostly satisfaction or perfect peace of mind. I also openly admit, what I would be perfectly satisfied with, if I were buying the home. Then, I turn to the buyer and say, "I am willing to write ANYTHING you wish. The worst that can happen is that the seller will say, ‘No!’ or ‘Take a hike.’ What’s your pleasure?”

In this case, if I were buying this house, I'd just sister the rafter ends, and be done with it. Anything beyond that, becomes a lot of work for very little return. Compared to a floor joist, rafters really don't work all that hard, even when fully loaded.

In my mind it's never a matter of "killing a deal". The questions for me are always: "Is there any real benefit in doing an extreme repair - or is it just expensive folly?" "What makes sense?"

The fact is, the condition being discussed in this thread isn't pretty, but it has been there for years, and will remain when we're all dead and buried – having left both the condition and this thread behind us...

"This above all: to thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#14] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 4:21:48 PM
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Quote: Posted by mgbinspect
When I run across a situation like this, I call my clients and agent together and discuss the whole affair. (I only include the agent so they will understand the thought process and the buyer’s ultimate decision. After all, having been a Realtor myself, they represent the buyer and need to be able to do so accurately.) We consider the problem, the possible solutions, and the real benefit of each. I always attempt to highlight the point, beyond which, the return for the repair effort becomes mostly satisfaction or perfect peace of mind. I also openly admit, what I would be perfectly satisfied with, if I were buying the home. Then, I turn to the buyer and say, "I am willing to write ANYTHING you wish. The worst that can happen is that the seller will say, ‘No!’ or ‘Take a hike.’ What’s your pleasure


A voice of reason!!

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#15] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 5:00:26 PM
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That would probably be fairly simple to fix, assuming it's caused by the addition settling. Strip the ridge cap and a couple of courses of shingles at the top to expose the sheathing. Remove a couple of feet of sheathing on either side of the ridge. Remove all the partly-withdrawn nails. Go in the crawl space under the addition, get as close to the exterior bearing wall as possible, and jack the floor up. When the gaps close, re-nail the rafters to the ridge and then nail lengths of MST strap on tops of the rafter pairs, connecting them to each other over the top of the ridge. Replace plywood and roofing. Go drink a beer and ponder why most of the jobs you get involve fixing other people's mistakes.
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#16] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 5:07:55 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by David Meiland

That would probably be fairly simple to fix, assuming it's caused by the addition settling. Strip the ridge cap and a couple of courses of shingles at the top to expose the sheathing. Remove a couple of feet of sheathing on either side of the ridge. Remove all the partly-withdrawn nails. Go in the crawl space under the addition, get as close to the exterior bearing wall as possible, and jack the floor up. When the gaps close, re-nail the rafters to the ridge and then nail lengths of MST strap on tops of the rafter pairs, connecting them to each other over the top of the ridge. Replace plywood and roofing. Go drink a beer and ponder why most of the jobs you get involve fixing other people's mistakes.


Or, once you've opened up the roof and cut all those nails:

- slide in an additional ridge board to fill the gap
- pull those vertical supports to permit the rafters to rest tight against the new ridge board.
- nail everything together
- and return the vertical supports, if you feel the need
- replace the sheathing, felt and roofing
- drink those beers.

"This above all: to thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#17] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 5:24:04 PM
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If you make it that easy you only get one beer.

I have made repairs for people who did not want short filler pieces installed because they worried that a home inspector would question why they were there and what had happened.

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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#18] Posted: 10/09/2010 - 5:33:38 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by David Meiland

If you make it that easy you only get one beer.


That's cool. I prefer to savor an extra dirty extra dry vodka martini, Scotch or Irish whiskey or a good Kentucky Bourbon - all "up", and on rare occasions after work, of course.

Quote: I have made repairs for people who did not want short filler pieces installed because they worried that a home inspector would question why they were there and what had happened.


I was actually thinking more of dropping in an additional complete full length ridge board of the thickness needed.


"This above all: to thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#19] Posted: 10/13/2010 - 7:52:22 PM
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Collar Ties???? I have seen some separated, but no this many and to this degree. It needs some serious repairs, I have seen sister rafters about 6 feet in length bolted into good timber portions of the rafters then nailed to the ridge beam with collar ties added.
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Can this be corrected-rafter/ridge seperation.
[#20] Posted: 10/20/2010 - 10:08:12 AM
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The "in jest" Barney Fife example was provided to make a point. People get suckered into making "fix it" suggestions all the time. It's OK to brainstorm and discuss amongst ourselves on a BB, but once you write any of these possible solutions down in a report, (or orally) your name is attached to the idea. If you have a meeting to discuss options, possible corrections, what can happen, etc. and give the "impression" that it's probably not that big a deal, what are you going to say when an expert reports back, "it is a big deal". The way it usually plays out is if the seller takes care of it it's a piece of cake. If the buyer get's a credit and hires someone after the purchase, the cost will depend on what the "expert" wants to do. Most reputable builders play on the side of caution. If a portion of the roof needs to be pulled up, you are talking about a lot more money than framing components applied from the attic area. In my area of Southern California, photos just like these have been part of a geo-technical engineer's power-point presentation at chapter meetings. It's fine to discuss amongst ourselves how to fix something, but in my area "how" and "why" this condition came about is key. I don't think this is an example of carpenter error.
Dale McNutt
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