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Duluth, Minnesota
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[#1] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 1:03:17 PM |  |  |
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Gentlemen- Looking at a modular house today (12 y/o) and found a fair amount of rust on the joists and beams (surface rust). I also noticed that the black supply pipe for the propane was also showing surface rust (a bit flaky). Then, I witnessed some white discoloration along the ceiling of the galvanized electrical conduit (6-8 inches from the ceiling and down). Some rust is normal, but this seemed "not right". Above the joists I find vapor barrier and fiberglass insulation as I'm sure that was how it was shipped.
I would think this would be normal for a crawlspace, but this is a finished, poured basement with in-floor heat. Basement is warm space, upstairs is of course, warm space; my question, "should the vapor barrier be removed and if so what about the finished areas (about 80% of basement)." Would the implications of that rust suggest that moisture is being trapped at the ceiling? I pulled back the VB and spot checked but didn't see anything out of ordinary.
I know, I know, I should have had pictures, but I really began thinking about this when writing the report (like a facepalm moment). The rust just seemed a bit excessive and flaky, you know like that "sparkly rust with molasses looking colors in it" (new term, have at it...)?
I appreciate any help here, and if I'm nuts -I'll take my lumps. But this one has me stumped. I'd hate to have a careless installation and then drop the ball for these people.
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Brent Consie
I-Spect Home Inspection Services
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Kenmore, WA
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#2] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 1:08:21 PM | | |
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OK,
I'm confused, are you talking about a modular home or a manufactured home? I know folks sometimes put basements under manufactured homes but I need to have a clearer description of construction of this in order to understand what is rusting, etc.
ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!
Mike
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Duluth, Minnesota
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#3] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 2:41:36 PM | | |
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Mike,
Thanks for replying, I appreciate it. We're talking about a modular home. Rim joists floor joists and main beam are steel, all inside a finished basement with that type of rust on it. The actual beams and joists are rusted and they are below the vapor barrier (sort of like the vapor barrier is holding in the fiberglass insulation and it droops a bit alongside each joist and alongside the main beams. The rim joist has no vapor barrier next to it just fibergalss insulation and it looks fine. I'm concerned because they just seem to be too rusted for a 12 y/o home. This is one of those things thats no big deal or a really, reeeeally big deal and I don't want to screw it up too badly. Thanks again. I wish I would have had a picture, never again...
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Brent Consie
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Duluth, Minnesota
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#5] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 5:11:28 PM | | |
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Greg,
Thanks for writing, That was my initial assessment, that it sat somewhere or was transported when it was wet or with salt on the road.
After taking a second look, I found a HUD plate. It is manufactured. I apologize for the confusion. I've never encountered a manufactured on such a nice basement before, and messed up. Mike got me to take a second look. That is why this forum is so valuable and I appreciate the advice. The subframe makes sense, but the initial question remains, should I be concerned about the vapor barrier and insulation with a heated basement? Would that cause undue moisture issues?
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Brent Consie
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#6] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 5:52:22 PM | | |
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The few manufactured homes I've inspected all sat over a wet pit in the ground. All the steel was rusted. Any possibility this home was popped onto a basement later?
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| Bill Kibbel, Historic & Commercial Building Inspections - Old House Resources |
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Duluth, Minnesota
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#7] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 6:14:29 PM | | |
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I'm not entirely sure, Bill. I don't see many of these homes in my area either. I'm beginning to suspect that that the vapor barrier is keeping the moisture in and what rust there may have been is exacerbated by the heat and basement moisture. I'm going to call it like this:
Sub Frame floor beams and joists are showing rust. My opinion is moisture being held in the basement because of the vapor barrier above. The basement and upstairs are independently heated. I recommend you monitor these components (pictures) for signs of further wear. Should you find the condition worsening or any moisture along the vapor barrier, I suggest you consult with a licensed contractor to explore moisture issues related to the vapor barrier.
If it was a crawlspace, I wouldn't have commented, but I got concerned when writing the report because of the finished spaces. Maybe I'm overthinking this thing. Get something in your head...
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Brent Consie
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#8] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 6:23:56 PM | | |
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If it is a manufactured home, aka "trailer home" it should have a plastic barrier that pretty much seals the underside of the structure. The steel frame will be exposed and unless it is undercoated/painted it will most likely be rusting. With a manufactured home you do not need a moisture barrier on the ground, it is nice but not required.
How old is it? Today I looked at a manufactured home and the underside was in almost pristine condition, the home was built in 1996. I have attached a picture that shows the frame, it is painted and rust was very minimal.
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Scott Patterson
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#9] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 6:45:39 PM | | |
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The steel on the HUD-codes have no corrosion coating, just black paint. At least the ones I've seen. Doesn't take much to start rusting. I've seen new ones onsite already beginning to rust.
Marc
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Duluth, Minnesota
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#10] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 7:40:45 PM | | |
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Drinking scotch now...
No seriously, thanks for helping me out (more like talking me down). That basement had me going one way, it was Mike that made me double check. I was stumped and really wanted to get it right. Glad I did. That framing is rather rusty for a 12 y/o house with a basement and I eventually called it because of the rusty gas piping & chalky conduit. Not what you would normaly see and she should keep an eye on it. Thanks again fellas for taking the time to help me out.
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Brent Consie
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[#11] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 8:09:49 PM | | |
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What evidence did you see that leads you to believe that the rust formed after the home was placed?
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Jim Katen, Oregon
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Duluth, Minnesota
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#12] Posted: 03/29/2012 - 9:25:33 PM | | |
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Jim,
Because the pipes and conduit from the VB to 8" down showed flaky crystalline rust on the black pipe and chalking on the conduit, in a standard basement, not a crawlspace. I guess it just didn't seem right to me. The rust was "different." It might have sat on a lot or had some rust prior to placement, I get that, but the type and amount made me think that additional moisture with the presence of the VB and the heated space made things worse.
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Brent Consie
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[#14] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 12:47:09 AM | | |
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This'll be a first recommendation for me when it comes to a home,
Check out POR-15. They could have someone sandblast the steel and then coat it with POR-15 and the rust issues will become non-issues.
ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!
Mike
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Olathe, KS
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#15] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 08:03:45 AM | | |
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Is it possible they use to not have the "basement" conditioned and it started as a big crawlspace? My parents had a modular installed after the '93 flood on top of 8' foundation walls to elevate it above the "new" flood plain. It was installed as an unconditioned space and they had it poured with an entry door and garage doors to allow parking under it, and to allow it to be opened for water to flow through in the event of a future flood.
Maybe this was similar originally???
Just brainstorming.
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Kevin Wattenbarger
Allied Home Inspections, Inc. Olathe, KS
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#16] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 08:46:24 AM | | |
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So, components added after the home was placed on the basement were rusting.
And the VB was installed ABOVE the floor joists?
And was the rust in the 8" closest to the VB or only within 8" of the VB?
(6-8 inches from the ceiling and down) or (from the VB to 8" down).
Around here the basement slab is poured after the basment is closed in and a propane construction heater has been been roaring into the unvented space for a week or two. The humidity resulting from combustion and curing is pretty impressive.
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Egbert
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Kenmore, WA
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#17] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 09:08:03 AM | | |
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No, you misunderstand.
It's a "manufactured home." When it leaves the factory it's a wood-framed home resting on a long steel backbone chassis. A layer of plastic mesh is used above the chassis beneath the house framing to keep the underside dry during transport and the mesh serves double-duty by holding the insulation in place between the floor stringers. When they put these in place over the typical pad used for manufactured homes they are still required to cover the ground with a cap sheet - a vapor barrier.
In this case, it's been lowered onto a basement and the chassis is rusting. He's concerned about the rust. Maybe they never bothered to use a barrier beneath the slab floor of this 'basement' and vapor migration through the slab is acting like a huge humidifier. Maybe the home used to be outside where it was exposed to the weather and later the foundation was added.
If the rust looks substantial enough to a home inspector that he feels he needs to mention it, it probably looks scary as hell to a home buyer.
ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!
Mike
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[#18] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 09:22:33 AM | | |
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The basement has in-floor heat and is warm. There is excess moisture being generated somehow.
I agree with Mike - stop the rust with a good paint job. Then deal with the moisture. Improve ventilation. There is likely a temperature variation there caused by the insulated floor of the manufactured home above a conditioned space.
Maybe the home owners don't always have the heat on.
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[#19] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 7:27:09 PM | | |
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Mike,
That's about dead on. I am really concerned with the VB.
Like John offered, could the in floor heat or heated space add moisture whilst the VB holds it in? Could the rusty subframe and piping/conduit be the canary in the coal mine for other moisture issues? I called it because the rest of the basement looked great, like new, not 12 years old. All but metals within 8" of the VB. Seems like the VB is the bad guy.
Big learning experience for me and I appreciate all of the help
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Brent Consie
I-Spect Home Inspection Services
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Kenmore, WA
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[#20] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 9:25:16 PM | | |
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I'm swagging here:
1. Maybe some kind of chemical off-gassing by the plastic mesh above the steel?
2. Maybe there is trace moisture migrating through the floor and walls that's strafified in the air below the mesh?
3. Is the in-floor heat electric? Where is the system grounded? Could that metal somehow be functioning like an anode or breaking down the way that some pipe does when it's used as an electrode?
ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!
Mike
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Duluth, Minnesota
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Vapor Barrier Under Modular Home
[#21] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 10:03:46 PM | | |
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Mike,
1. Not sure.
2. That's what I'm thinking.
3. Ground rods. Everything properly bonded.
Just afraid of what I can't see like what if the VB holds moisture in (doesn't have to be that much), and moisture builds where I can't see like the backside of the sheetrock in the finished spaces (dreaded "m" word). Do you think the VB is a liability in this case (the basement is heated [hot water in-floor] because there is a rec room with fireplace and tv lounge)?
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Brent Consie
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Kenmore, WA
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[#22] Posted: 03/30/2012 - 10:08:17 PM | | |
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Dunno,
Been musing on it; trying to wrap my head around it. Not sure what to think.
Any kind of chemicals stored down there?
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Duluth, Minnesota
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[#23] Posted: 03/31/2012 - 07:58:16 AM | | |
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No, just a bit of salt for the water softener.
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Brent Consie
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[#24] Posted: 03/31/2012 - 10:00:29 AM | | |
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The more I think about this, I keep coming back to the plastic on the underside of the home and the heated basement.
Have you ever seen how you collect emergency survival water from the ground with a piece of plastic, a hole in the ground, a cup and sunlight (heat source)?
If you think about this you have the same effect going on with this home. You have the hole (basement), you have the heat source(in-slab heat) and you have the plastic sheet (the moisture barrier on the home).
The moisture is being pulled out of the the concrete in the form of vapor. I bet this only occurs during the winter when the heat is on.
I really think this is the cause of the excessive rust.
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Scott Patterson
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"Minds are like parachutes they only function when open"
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Duluth, Minnesota
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[#25] Posted: 03/31/2012 - 1:42:09 PM | | |
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I agree, Scott. And if I can clarify, the rust is not eating the metal per se, but a bit of an "advanced surface rust." Again, its like that crystalline like rust with the bigger flakes, not just the chalky surface rust. I wasn't actually so concerned with the rust, just the hint that if the moisture is trapped as it appears to be, and with the pipes showing damage, what kind of havoc potentially exists in the concealed spaces. I do believe the VB is holding moisture in, and the rust is the canary.
I wrote that she should monitor that plastic for signs of moisture -particularly in the winter. I wrote that if the plastic shows any signs of moisture, call a licensed contractor to discuss solutions related to the moisture. I did offer that increasing ventillation and or use of a dehumidifier would keep moisture down.
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Brent Consie
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Canton, Ohio
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[#26] Posted: 03/31/2012 - 9:22:56 PM | | |
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Just because there is heat in the basement floor doesn't mean the people ever turned it on. When the OP used the term "Finished Space", did he mean the basement was being lived in? A exposed basement ceiling of black plastic and steel carriage beams doesn't sound finished to me.
What he describes is normal for Double or Single Wide's (o, sorry, can't use those term anymore) that sit on basements around here. I have only inspected one that even had a set of indoor steps installed.
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Ezra Malernee
Canton, Ohio
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