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Georgetown, KY
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#2] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 04:53:28 AM |  |  |
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I would think at the least that joist in the crawlspace ought to be a double.
Max cantilever used to be 4' - 0 (without a deck hanging on it!)
Most of the time, inside you'll find a rather pronounced crown in the floor where everything comes together.
I typically write this up as a potential problem and recommend deck support.
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DeWitt, Mi
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Cantilevering
[#3] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 05:54:44 AM | | |
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Erby, maybe it is too early on a monday morn - but I don't see a cantilever. Is the wall on the right side of crawl photo the foundation? If so, that isn't a cantilever.
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Les
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Spring Hill (Nashville area), Tennessee
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Cantilevering
[#4] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 06:35:52 AM | | |
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Are you calling the bay window a cantilever? If so, I don't think that it is a problem. Now the deck attachment might be a problem. I would like to see the deck self supporting with post back toward the house also.
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Scott Patterson
http://www.traceinspections.com
"Minds are like parachutes they only function when open"
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Springfield, NJ
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 Cantilevering
[#5] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 06:53:11 AM | | |
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The rule of thumb for a cantilever is to have a 2:1 ratio. For every foot out, you need two feet back. This is a very simply rule of thumb and conditions will vary by circumstance. In your case the supporting joist needs to be back at least six feet unless other accomodations have been made to support the floor.
The joist that is supporting the cantilever needs to be at least doubled, maybe even tripled.
It appears that the framing for the cantilever is newer than the rest and that this was an alteration to the original structure.
Good call. The structure needs further evaluation and possible repair.
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Succasunna, NJ
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Cantilevering
[#6] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 3:04:51 PM | | |
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Steve,
Why would the joist need to be doubled or tripled. The way I see it, the 'cantilevered' joists are actually bearing on the foundation wall/sill.
If there are properly installed columns/posts on the exterior, what is the problem?
Am I missing something?
Darren
www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
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Darren
Succasunna NJ
New Jersey Home Inspections
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Richardsville, VA
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Cantilevering
[#7] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 3:27:15 PM | | |
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Erby, do you have any pictures of the deck framing and bolting from underneath. It would be a backwards way of doing it but, the deck could help support the bump out in the rear if it was a new addition that was all built at the same time..
Tom Barber in VA
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#8] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 3:50:50 PM | | |
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Hey, Darren!
Leverage! I've seen some pretty wicked humps in floors through this setup. The weight of the deck serves as weight on a fulcrum (the foundation) and up comes the interior floor.
It's the opposite action that you're trying to overcome, an upward pull of the joists and header joist under the interior flooring. There is no counter-balancing weight on the supporting floor joists unless someone or thing is set on the floor. It takes years, but it will definitely rise up into a nice little crown.
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Staten Island, New York
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Cantilevering
[#9] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 3:59:05 PM | | |
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Since there are posts supporting the deck, is it still considered cantilevered?
Or is it the fact that it attaches into the house and projects out what makes it cantilevered.
Either way, the fact that the joists are sitting on a block wall, makes me feel that it is plenty strong. Remove the posts, well that's a different story.
...I also prefer decks constructed independant of the building.
...I also agree that if the posts settle, which they probibly will, it will create a crown in the floor.
If I can figure out how to do it, I will post some pics of a cantelivered deck that I have recently built.
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Steven Turetsky, UID#16000002314
Comprehensive Home & Building Inspections
www.homeinspectionsnewyork.com
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Staten Island, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island, Westchester
"The great aim of education is not knowledge, but action".
Herbert Spencer 1830-1903 |
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#10] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 4:19:56 PM | | |
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The deck is only supported by the posts on one end. Half the weight of the deck is hung on the house and a stretch of that support is the cantilevered bay flooring. That's the lever and fulcrum area. I kid you not, I've seen pretty big humps in floors from this setup. It won't happen over night. It takes more like 5 - 10 years for it to get wicked.
I've even seen it over time arch floor joists that were one piece from the center beam out to the end of the cantilever when a deck is hung on it. I wish I has some photos to share with you but the condition doesn't photo well. But, you can sure appreciate it when you walk across the room!
Now, no doubt, this is more a cosmetic issue than a significant structural issue, but who wants a hump in their floor?
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Staten Island, New York
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Cantilevering
[#11] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 4:39:46 PM | | |
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So is it the lever and fulcrum characteristic that makes it a cantelevered deck?
If the joists were not extended into the huouse, there would be no lever, thus it would not be "cantelevered?
By the way, I don't personally care for extending joists into the structure, sooner or later they always rot out and are a hassel to repair, and in many cases they are leaks waiting to happen.
As I previously stated, I prefer decks (wood), independant of the structure.
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Steven Turetsky, UID#16000002314
Comprehensive Home & Building Inspections
www.homeinspectionsnewyork.com
www.eifsinspectionsnewyork.com
Staten Island, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island, Westchester
"The great aim of education is not knowledge, but action".
Herbert Spencer 1830-1903 |
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Marion, NY
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Cantilevering
[#12] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 4:48:10 PM | | |
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Darren,
is that Frank zappa? the very first human to ever use words in a song that were spoken to a sincopated beat, that has since been adapted by the african american population and called "rap"?
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Mike Nelson CPI
“Just because you understand how a home is built, does not mean you understand the innumerable insults a human being can heap upon a domicile”
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#13] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 5:28:16 PM | | |
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Steven, I'm totally with you based on 1000s of inspections. Freestanding decks is the only way to fly. And, I would not swear to the "terminology" but, the deck is hung on the end of floor joists that are cantilevered and forming the floor of the bay. :-)
cpmike, I've always thought about asking Darren that. I miss Frank and his yellow snow... Actually, I've often wondered if he didn't pick me and a couple of my buddies up hitch hiking around 1970 on my way to the Catskills to camp and party. Or, it may have been one of the couple times I hitchhiked up to Woodstock. (Not for the big event.. I missed that one. A wee bit too young.) It sure looked like him and he was in a VW Bus and played one mean harmonica as he drove. He was also getting blasted and shared.. Hey! I was an 18 year old long haired hippie! It was fashionable then! :-D If it wasn't him, it had to be his twin brother. We all looked at each other and kept saying... "Nah"... I'll never know, but I prefer to believe it was him.
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Springfield, NJ
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Cantilevering
[#14] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 5:36:44 PM | | |
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Quote: Originally posted by DarrenSteve, Why would the joist need to be doubled or tripled. The way I see it, the 'cantilevered' joists are actually bearing on the foundation wall/sill. If there are properly installed columns/posts on the exterior, what is the problem? Am I missing something? Darren www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
It looks like there are no posts adjacent to the house and that causes the cantilever to support the added load of 1/2 of the deck.
If there were posts on proper footings supporting the bay than than you are right and the cantilever rule is not relevant. I doubt this is the case because someone took the trouble to remove some of the floor to construct the cantilever. If it was self-supporting it would not make sense to do this extra work.
Even without the deck loading there can be a sag or hump in a floor where the cantilevered joists are tied into the perpendicular floor joist, depending on the actual loading onto the wall. As I said before, the loads vary from one house to another and should have been checked prior to construction. If you double or triple the joist, it reduces the chance of sags or humps. (The joists should be attached to each other so they act as one).
The joist hangers need to be thoroughly nailed because the forces can pull up or down. This is even more important when a cantilever supports roof loads that vary due to snow.
In the case shown, uplift is more likely because the joists do not extend far enough into the house.
As an additional comment, generally, if the room has long spans and deflected floor joists, it does not matter what you do, there will be a hump where the joist is doubled or tripled because it won't sag as much as the adjacent parallel joist.
When designing a structure I try to avoid this situation whenever possible. I prefer all of the floor framing in a room to run in the same direction.
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#15] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 5:40:41 PM | | |
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And, Steve, we've already learned that cross bridging is ineffective. Rats! 
That's good thinking too, Steve. I've seen some pretty wicked humps in flooring where joists change directions.
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Staten Island, New York
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Cantilevering
[#16] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 6:04:09 PM | | |
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mgb,
We must be of the same era, I also missed Woodstock by a year or so, but I did go to a concert at the Pocono Speedway.
About 10 of us, maybe more, squeezed into a van. Got caught in bumper to bumper traffic jam, miles from the speedway, ended up walking the rest of the way.
No food (it all got squashed on the way up), no water, got separated from my friends. Lots of rain, even more mud, very cold.
I walked for endless hours in countless circles around the track, with a sleeping bag covering me, searching for my friends.
Lot of wild people, having a wild time 
Wild chicks doing even wilder things... 
BOY DID I HAVE A GREAT TIME! 
Those were the days!
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Steven Turetsky, UID#16000002314
Comprehensive Home & Building Inspections
www.homeinspectionsnewyork.com
www.eifsinspectionsnewyork.com
Staten Island, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island, Westchester
"The great aim of education is not knowledge, but action".
Herbert Spencer 1830-1903 |
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Georgetown, KY
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Cantilevering
[#17] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 6:21:05 PM | | |
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I guess, in my hurry, I thought I had explained it well enough. Obviously, I hadn't.
Brand new, never been lived in house.
Mike has it right. The deck is supported off the cantilevered portion. The concern is the floor hump where the cantilevered joists intersect the regular joists. The weight of the deck drawing down on the cantilevered joists will raise the other end of those joists, and the joist they are hung off of, causing a floor hump
Perhaps this crappy little drawing wil help.
Black foundation wall
Brown regular joists
Red cantilevered joists
Green Deck joists
Blue Deck posts.
Download Attachment:  Deck Draw.jpg
75.42 KB
California Jam, April 6, 1974, 200,000 people at the Ontario Motor Speedway. Someplace in those boxes in the garage, I still have a bunch of photos of the good times had there. Good thing for the photos, cause I didn't remember much of it.
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Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, KY
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Staten Island, New York
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Cantilevering
[#18] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 6:34:28 PM | | |
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Erby, I agree with you. Things are going to move, and somethings gotta give.
In time I would be suprised not to find some distortion in the floor.
... California Jam 1974
There you are, flowers in your long blond hair, ... real caligirl... those were the days!
Me... bell bottoms, paisley pants, tie dyed shirts, fro, beard...
I still dress that way!
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Steven Turetsky, UID#16000002314
Comprehensive Home & Building Inspections
www.homeinspectionsnewyork.com
www.eifsinspectionsnewyork.com
Staten Island, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island, Westchester
"The great aim of education is not knowledge, but action".
Herbert Spencer 1830-1903 |
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#19] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 6:41:10 PM | | |
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Lol,
Ohh.. boy... truth be told, I consumed probably a freighter of... well... you know... in over an 8 - 10 year period. I had a blast, but didn't accomplish much. Well, I did see the Stones, Three Dog Night, Ted Nugent, BB King, Bruce Springsteins (3 times) Stevie Wonder, The Doobie Brothers (at ECU before they were even famous) Steely Dan, Joanie Mitchel, Bad Finger, Little Feet, And a few more I'm sure that will come to me later. And, I probably layed a million brick and block during that time to support my entertainment.
As a side note and in regards to Structural, I saw The Stones at RFK Stadium in Washington, DC. During the song "Brown Sugar" I was watching from the second deck through field glasses. The stadium was flexing so severely with everyone bouncing to the music that it was impossible to keep them in the field of the glasses. That freaked me out. I stopped bouncing and handed the field glasses to the next guy who after looking also stopped bouncing. We thought we were going to die!
And, thankfully, I was open and honest about my party days with my five kids and none of them went that road (Thank heaven)
Effective graphic Erby! I'm impressed.
Ehh, Steve, Whatever happened to those wild chicks anyway? It seems they all bacame battle axes to me... 
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Staten Island, New York
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Cantilevering
[#20] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 7:15:32 PM | | |
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mgb,
I respect your honesty w/your children. I'm sure they're very proud of you!
There is not much that I conceal from my children, but there are some things that I'm not ready to tell them... yet. Not that I was so bad, and am actually proud of most of what I've done. But I grew up very dangerous, and sometimes am amazed that I survived it.
Although we've never met... yet, By your posts, I get the feeling that you are a good man, and I value your friendly,informative, yet never egotistical nor harsh responses.
....BATTLEAXES, soooooo true, what the hell happened?
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Steven Turetsky, UID#16000002314
Comprehensive Home & Building Inspections
www.homeinspectionsnewyork.com
www.eifsinspectionsnewyork.com
Staten Island, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island, Westchester
"The great aim of education is not knowledge, but action".
Herbert Spencer 1830-1903 |
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#21] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 7:20:43 PM | | |
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Thanks Steve and ditto,
I try! The golden rule seems to get one through life about as smoothly as one can hope. "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." And, I'd like to believe that here on this site we are teachers and comrades.
I had my share of near death experiences as well. One time we got picked up by four guys returning from Baltimore to Boston after a baseball game. They were all drunk as skunks and the drunkest of them all was driving. It took us about a half hour to convince them to let us out of the car.
My exact words to my kids regarding my life and times in summary were, "I'm not going to lie to you. I had a great time. But, I'd sure like to have that ten years back."
Oh! And all my kids have all of their fingers and toes etc. It wasn't true!
Oh Well, enough thread drift I suppose.
(I noticed your other post Mike, Sorry, We'll get back on topic. Just having a little fun. A little mental R & R is good now and then, but I'll try to behave.  )
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State: Arizona
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Cantilevering
[#22] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 8:46:05 PM | | |
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It seems it would depend on how well the deck joists are attached to the floor joist of the "mudroom". If they are sistered on for a good length, the deck joists and foundation wall will support the interior floor. If the dech is "hung" on the mudroom rim joist, I think you have a problem.
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Seattle, WA
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Cantilevering
[#23] Posted: 04/24/2006 - 11:50:19 PM | | |
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The space under the bump-out and deck doesn't look particularly useful. Wouldn't a couple of support posts on good footings under the corners of the bump-out be a very simple fix?
The joist probably should be doubled, but not to prevent up-lift. I suspect the cantilvered joists would lift out of the hangers before you bent the joist. They are "hangers" and not real good in the oppsosite direction.
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Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
http://www.rainspect.com
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Ashland, VA
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Cantilevering
[#24] Posted: 04/25/2006 - 03:27:10 AM | | |
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That should work pretty much the same as far as stress on the greater floor system, but adding them to the deck would even take the stress off of the bay header joist which would be ideal.
Only time and no remedy will tell as far as doubling the header joist and the hangers goes.
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Succasunna, NJ
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Cantilevering
[#25] Posted: 04/25/2006 - 03:31:38 AM | | |
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Now I see said the wise man....
From the original post, I thougth it was a continious span supported on the exterior by posts.
Yes Mike, that's FZ's album cover "Sheik Yerbouti".
I too went to the Pocono concert; I believe the actual name was "Concert 10". Cold, rainy weekend that shut down the PA turnpike and ended with 3-Dog night as the headliner. I remember looking up at an airplane and all of a sudden they started to parachute more security personal down; amazing!
Darren
"What can I say about this elixir"
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Darren
Succasunna NJ
New Jersey Home Inspections
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DeWitt, Mi
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Cantilevering
[#26] Posted: 04/25/2006 - 04:54:18 AM | | |
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I think you got a problem here, but it has nothing to do with cantilever principles. It has to do with deck attachment to Rim/Band. Think compression and tension. Framing used there is cost and time efficient, only lacks the necessary exterior footing and posts. My opinion is there likely never will be a hump on the interior. but the joist will experience lateral movement toward the center of building. It would be a toss up which way the floor level goes: hump or depression.
Also, the drawing looks like a Christmas frog taking a nap!
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Les
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Deck Draw.jpg
