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Gervais, Oregon
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Springfield, NJ
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 Old houses and egress windows
[#2] Posted: 02/01/2007 - 6:55:12 PM |  |  |
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I think your assumption is incorrect.
It is onerous on homeowners to require them to increase window sizes to modern egress dimensions if they are installing replacement windows in existing openings for the purpose of saving energy as long as they don't make the egress conditions any worse.
In NJ, we have a Rehab section of the NJUCC that allows owners to do rehab work in old buildings without bringing everything up to current code conditions. For example, the code allows us to replace windows as long as the existing non-conforming conditions are not made any worse by the work.
The rational is that if everyone was required to upgrade to current code when doing work such as window replacement, the cost of doing this work would be significantly increased and many people would opt not do it. The end result would be a detriment because energy would be wasted. So what is worse, keeping the window size and saving energy, or leaving old windows (the same size)and wasting energy?
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Gervais, Oregon
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Old houses and egress windows
[#3] Posted: 02/01/2007 - 7:59:40 PM | | |
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Well that may or may not cover what I said verbally about it being required to the agent. I did find an interpretive ruling on the Oregon code that said that as long as the replacement window clear opening was not less then the original clear opening then it could remain assuming it was legal at the time of original construction otherwise it has to be brought up to curent code.
I went aggressive on the windows based partially on what I read in the "Converted BR in basement. No egress" post in the interior forum.
Was my language to imflamatory? Should I have made it kinder, gentler and softer?
I have been thru a fire. In a fire people can get all confused. I know I did. I may have been wrong to word it the way I did but it was my honest opinion at the time that having egress windows are that important.
If I otherwise really wanted to buy the house I would make it top priority to change install an egress window in the bedrooms. I don't think I could sleep at night knowing my kids may not be able to be rescued.
Chris, Oregon
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Nazareth, PA
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Old houses and egress windows
[#4] Posted: 02/01/2007 - 9:10:41 PM | | |
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I wouldn't have made it an issue for the reasons Steven gave.
I don't always grandfather windows if they are original or replacements that are the same size as the orighnals, though. Once in a while I'll run across a late 50's ranch that has small sliding windows in the bedrooms, about five feet above the floor. Those I always flag for lack of emergency egress.
With other windows, it's a judgement call that I sometimes struggle with. I'm prone to flip flopping on casement windows in bedrooms. Most don't open far enough, and some will open far enough if you take the arm out of the track. In the confusion during a fire, are people going to be able to disengage the arm?
Twice in the past week, I've had houses with Plexiglas screwed in place over bedroom windows. The first was a 60's ranch that had them screwed to the exterior. Yesterday I had a 7,000 square foot (including additions) 1833 Federal style house that had Plexiglas screwed in place at the interior of every single double hung window on the first and second floors. The place was a nightmare to heat, but the owner didn't want to mar the exterior with storm windows. The windows on the unheated third floor weren't covered with Plexi, but they did have the sashes screwed closed. Over 40 windows were inoperative!
The inspection was for the homeowner, who is considering putting the place up for sale. When I pointed out the glaring problem of no emergency egress, he proudly pulled out a fire ax. He said he keeps one in every bedroom, and when they have overnight guests, he shows them where the ax is and what it's to be used for. I have to admit, I was speechless.
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Joe Hancaviz
Nazareth, PA |
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Kenmore, WA
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Old houses and egress windows
[#5] Posted: 02/01/2007 - 11:03:10 PM | | |
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I write them as a matter of due diligence.
But off the record, I usually tell my client that if there's a fire in that room, a person will find a way to get out of that window regardless if its 4" smaller than today's requirement or the window sill is higher than 44" off the ground!!!
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Randy Navarro
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Gaston, Oregon
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Old houses and egress windows
[#6] Posted: 02/01/2007 - 11:12:40 PM | | |
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| Quote:Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt. . . Now her complaint is that the original house was not required to have them so why are they required now?
I said because the new windows constituted new work and one was now in each room required to be improved to an egress window. Was I wrong in that assumption?
When she learns that's not a correct statement, you'll lose credibility. The right answer would have been, "Because people might not be able to get out of the house in an emergency." That's the heart of the matter.
Quote:Her second complaint was the use of the words major safety hazard and immediate attention needed. Was I wrong to use those terms?
They wouldn't have been my terms of choice but I don't believe you were wrong.
Quote:In the City of Portland I know for a fact that it doesn't matter how old a house is each bedroom needs an egress window even if it was never originally required
I'm not familiar with that one. Where's it from? Do you mean to say that a Portland city official can walk up to a 1950's ranch and somehow force the owners to install larger windows?
Quote:although beit that if the window is at least 20"x22" or larger its OK but you have to improve it to the full code requirement if its not.
Actually, the window has to have a 5.7 square foot opening. The width can't be less than 20" and the height can't be less than 22". A 20"x22" opening doesn't meet that requirement.
- Jim Katen, Oregon
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Jim Katen, Oregon
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Gervais, Oregon
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Old houses and egress windows
[#7] Posted: 02/02/2007 - 01:20:18 AM | | |
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I sat next to one of the Portland muni's in a couple of code classes at Chemeketa who was responsible for enforcement of chapter 29 housing maintenance requirements and he was the one who told me about this stuff but said that they probably would not try and enforce it except in special situations.
You can go on to the portlandonline website to "services" and then "charter, code & policy" and then "Portland city code" and then "Title 29"
Its in section 29.30.230 Emergency Exits and section 29.30.090 Windows.
Salem does not appear to require this or address it other then to just maintain what you got.
Chris, Oregon
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Succasunna, NJ
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Old houses and egress windows
[#8] Posted: 02/02/2007 - 02:54:13 AM | | |
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Chris,
I see that situation on many, many inspections. here's what I write in my report:
"Windows are not large enough for today's fire egress standards (Minimum opening is 24" height and 20" wide with a net opening of at least 5.7 square feet, or 5.0 Square feet if on 1st floor level). This means if a window opening is 24 inches high, it must be 34 1/2 inches wide to meet the 5.7 sq ft. While they probably met standards when the house was constructed, you should consider upgrading to meet today's safety requirements."
Very often, I find brand new replacement windows and my client asks the question, why didn't they fix them during replacement? I tell them exactly what Steve says above; you can replace existing windows with the same size windows.
Most of the time, I explain you can replace that double hung with a casement window to meet the standards.
Darren
www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
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Darren
Succasunna NJ
New Jersey Home Inspections
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lawrenceville, georgia
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Rochester, New York
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Old houses and egress windows
[#10] Posted: 02/02/2007 - 05:04:58 AM | | |
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While we all base our inspections loosely on code, to try and make our reports sound like an enforceable document is folly.
" By today's standards this is a zero bedroom, three den home. Better building practices dictate that window openings must be at least blah blah to provide egress from a burning home and just as importantly to allow a firefighter wearing full gear access to the home and occupants." I would probably use the terms unsafe or dangerous when describing these rooms as sleeping rooms.
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Chad Fabry
StructureSmart Home Inspection Rochester, NY
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Springfield, NJ
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Old houses and egress windows
[#11] Posted: 02/02/2007 - 05:08:56 AM | | |
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Don't get me wrong, It is better to enlarge the windows if possible. Improving safety is always good.
I agree with the way Darren handles this issue.
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Samantha, AL
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Old houses and egress windows
[#12] Posted: 02/02/2007 - 08:28:15 AM | | |
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I agree with what Darren and Steven. I inform my clients and put it in the main report. Darrens writing is better then mine so it will be replacing what I use.
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Have a good day inspecting.
Phillip R. Smith Sr.
Samantha (Tuscaloosa) AL
www.homesweethomeinspectionsal.com
"When you inspect crap, you find crap." Phillip 2010
"Always desire to learn something useful."
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Portland, OR
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Gervais, Oregon
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Old houses and egress windows
[#14] Posted: 11/29/2010 - 03:56:28 AM | | |
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That's a good question and one I have had for a long time, but keep forgetting to ask. We have a lot of basements around here that share stairs to the exterior with a door to the kitchen into the house.
I would think that it's just fine, but I don't have confirmation on that.
Chris, Oregon
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