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Sister I-Joist Installation

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Huntersville, North Carolina
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Sister I-Joist Installation
[#27] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 2:31:30 PM
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Thanks for asking around, that is great info. Squash block do seem like an easy install/fix. Looks like they need to be about a 1/16" taller than the joist itself, but that shouldn't be too difficult to knock in place.

At this point, I can ask the builder about fixing it and he will probably refuse (per my previous conversation with him). I don't think I can install myself because that could void the structural warranty (10 years) and I don't have engineering documentation to approve the fix.

So I am kinda screwed unless I want to pay money for a documented engineering fix (ie. squash blocks), pay money to sue the builder (ie. house not built per plan), or wait for something bad to happen to the house (ie. covered by structural warranty). Not exactly the ideal situation. Do I have any other options?

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Rochester, New York
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Sister I-Joist Installation
[#28] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 2:42:23 PM
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Quote: Do I have any other options?


A nice Cabernet?

Chad Fabry
StructureSmart Home Inspection Rochester, NY
www.structuresmart.com
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[#29] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 2:50:11 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Chad Fabry

Quote: Do I have any other options?


A nice Cabernet?


Haha! Perhaps you are right. I don't plan on being in this house for more than 2-3 more years (another kid on the way) and I currently don't have any problems, that are showing, as it stands now.

Hopefully the next inspector for the person buying my house is as bad as the inspector I hired when I built this house (and the county inspector to boot).

I should have come on these forums when I bought this house and hired one of you guys :)

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[#30] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 2:55:55 PM
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Yes, you should have. Thanks, it's nice of you to say.


Just so I'm clear on this thread........

I've been commenting on the slightly mangled joist and not considering the rim material or it's consequences. Is the APA commenting on the mangled joist, or the rim material in their damning of the installation?

Kurt in Chicago

"If I smell it, it goes in the report".............Phillip Smith...2012


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[#31] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 3:18:59 PM
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Hi Kurt,

There were no mangled joists in my situation; just plain PT lumber rims mated to I-joists. APA-EWA said it was FU, WIJMA said it was FU, I-joist manufacturer's engineer said it was FU and suggested the speed blocks as a way to make it acceptable (for them). APA-EWA's document speaks specifically to the idea of mating I joists to non-engineered rims and the potential for shrinkage of those rims versus almost no shrinkage of engineered rims.

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Mike

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[#32] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 3:24:17 PM
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If the mis-matched rim hasn't caused a problem to date, it probably won't. The biggest issue is the initial shrinkage that happens in the first year.

Improper rims & missing squash blocks can be a real issue though.


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Jim Katen, Oregon
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Sister I-Joist Installation
[#33] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 3:43:22 PM
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Quote: Haha! Perhaps you are right. I don't plan on being in this house for more than 2-3 more years (another kid on the way) and I currently don't have any problems, that are showing, as it stands now.

Hopefully the next inspector for the person buying my house is as bad as the inspector I hired when I built this house (and the county inspector to boot).

I should have come on these forums when I bought this house and hired one of you guys :)


Hope you don't mind if I suggest you take a good look at Mr. Katen's pictures and consider buying a house built with lumber instead of mulch and resin the next time around.

I'm Gary Blum and I approve this message

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[#34] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 3:49:52 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Jim Katen

If the mis-matched rim hasn't caused a problem to date, it probably won't. The biggest issue is the initial shrinkage that happens in the first year.

Improper rims & missing squash blocks can be a real issue though.


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Woof........

And, I suppose it will just keep going. Down.


Kurt in Chicago

"If I smell it, it goes in the report".............Phillip Smith...2012


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[#35] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 4:04:13 PM
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Couple of articles to read. J.D. consulted on the job I described above.

http://www.ashireporter.org/ar...x?id=571

http://www.inspectorsjournal.c..._ID=3196

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Mike

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[#36] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 4:20:57 PM
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I just went around the perimeter of the crawl space and looked for buckled i-joists after you posted those photos. Good news is that there were none. No squash blocks either though. WTF. I did find a black widow, yikes. Wish I was back in Buffalo sometimes.

After reading a lot about this engineered lumber, it seems like a real PITA to install correctly. Especially for mindless builders. Perhaps the negatives out weigh the positives for engineered wood. Would rather have a house built right with conventional wood than use engineered wood built wrong. It's unfortunate that there has to be a compromise. I am an engineer (not structural unfortunately) and work on nuke power plants. If I had as many quality problems as these builders, people would die.

FYI, found out that the joists manufacturer. Here is what is written on the joist

Boise Alexandria EWP BCI 5000S 1.8 Joist


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[#37] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 4:56:53 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by drm31078

I just went around the perimeter of the crawl space and looked for buckled i-joists after you posted those photos. Good news is that there were none. No squash blocks either though. WTF. I did find a black widow, yikes. Wish I was back in Buffalo sometimes.

After reading a lot about this engineered lumber, it seems like a real PITA to install correctly. Especially for mindless builders. Perhaps the negatives out weigh the positives for engineered wood. Would rather have a house built right with conventional wood than use engineered wood built wrong. It's unfortunate that there has to be a compromise. I am an engineer (not structural unfortunately) and work on nuke power plants. If I had as many quality problems as these builders, people would die.

FYI, found out that the joists manufacturer. Here is what is written on the joist

Boise Alexandria EWP BCI 5000S 1.8 Joist




If you Google "EWP BCI 5000S 1.8 Joist" the builder guide pops up first on the search. It has yours listed and states dimensional lumber isn't suitable for the rim. Can't get the direct web address for the pdf but it opens when you click that first link. The guide also has their phone number where you can call to ask questions about your installation.

Kevin Wattenbarger
www.911owned.com
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[#38] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 5:11:22 PM
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Awesome thanks! I will send to builder and see what he says.

One thing I noticed is the third "end bearing" figure doesn't show squash blocks? Most of the other i-joist manufacturers show squash blocks. What am I missing?

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[#39] Posted: 06/14/2011 - 7:32:28 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by drm31078

Awesome thanks! I will send to builder and see what he says.

One thing I noticed is the third "end bearing" figure doesn't show squash blocks? Most of the other i-joist manufacturers show squash blocks. What am I missing?
The squash blocks are normally only required where there are heavier point loads. In the case of the other brand of joists that I'd dealt with; when they'd used conventional lumber at the rims, the manufacturer's engineer considered every single joist point-loaded because of the potential for shrinkage at the rim and insisted that the builder needed to add squash blocks at every joist.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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[#40] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 08:55:04 AM
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So I spoke to the Boise Engineer (manufacturer of original joist). If I get him the loads and joist drawing he will come up with a repair to the original damaged joist. He couldn't comment on the sister joist currently installed because it is another manufacturer, but said that if it was a Boise joist the notching is not allowed.

His first thought is to leave the damaged sister joist installed because ripping it out could do more damage than good. Then use piece of solid LVL engineered wood with a shorter height (say 9" instead of 9 1/2") as a sister joist on the other side of the original joist. Once in place, jack up and use metal shims on each bearing end to engage the subfloor. Thus there will be three joists in total at that span (original, damaged sister, new sister). He said this method will be much easier to install than trying to beat in a piece of identical i-joist since the home is completely built.

As long as I get some engineering paper work, I guess this will work. Hopefully the builder will cooperate getting me the plans that the engineer requires.

Comments?

FYI, I spoke to him about the rim board question. He said because it's a pier and curtain foundation that the PT lumber is fine. He didn't go into much more explanation than that. He said it's not considered a true rim board in a pier and curtain foundation because it's load bearing like a girder. I dunno, it didn't really make sense to me. I might pick his brain more about it. He isn't the most talkative type of person.

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[#41] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 11:08:03 AM
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Quote: Originally posted by drm31078

. . . FYI, I spoke to him about the rim board question. He said because it's a pier and curtain foundation that the PT lumber is fine. He didn't go into much more explanation than that. He said it's not considered a true rim board in a pier and curtain foundation because it's load bearing like a girder. . . .


Except that you can still get crushing at the piers.

Also, if this is a P&C foundation, where are the hangers at the joists above the curtain wall?

Jim Katen, Oregon
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[#42] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 2:19:58 PM
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Are you a home inspector Dan?
Terry



http://www.hlis.net

This space for let - please inquire within.


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[#43] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 2:25:48 PM
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No. Its my house. Just looking for advice. These forums have been really helpful.
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[#44] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 3:19:06 PM
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You may want to consider hiring a local home inspector to assist Dan. That way you get local, personal attention, and another home inspector gets to make a living. It's important to pay for expertise as I'm sure you understand. If it weren't for our paying customers we wouldn't be here. No one wants to wear out their welcome.
Terry



http://www.hlis.net

This space for let - please inquire within.


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Sister I-Joist Installation
[#45] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 3:28:10 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Terence McCann

You may want to consider hiring a local home inspector to assist Dan. That way you get local, personal attention, and another home inspector gets to make a living. It's important to pay for expertise as I'm sure you understand. If it weren't for our paying customers we wouldn't be here. No one wants to wear out their welcome.


Unfortunately, when my home was built 4 years ago, I did hire a local home inspector for pre drywall and post drywall inspections. He did not catch any of the issues I have posted. Therefore, I am taking things into my own hands.

People post here on their own accord. If people feel like they have given enough "free" advice then they won't post. Right? Some folks, such as those that have posted on this thread already, have been very helpful and don't seem to mind helping. If they do mind then they don't post anymore. If anyone that has helped is in the Charlotte,nc area please pm me.

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[#46] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 4:04:47 PM
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I think it's fine that you're a homeowner asking questions.

Some of the best and most informative discussions we've had on this board over the past decade were initiated by non-inspectors.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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Sister I-Joist Installation
[#47] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 4:07:07 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by hausdok

I think it's fine that you're a homeowner asking questions.

Some of the best and most informative discussions we've had on this board over the past decade were initiated by non-inspectors.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike


Thanks mike.

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[#48] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 4:33:11 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by hausdok

I think it's fine that you're a homeowner asking questions.

Some of the best and most informative discussions we've had on this board over the past decade were initiated by non-inspectors.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike


There is a difference between non-inspectors and freeloaders. Non-inspectors thank you for your time and then call in a professional. The freeloaded just keeps pushing on the tit. Consider someone calling you on the phone, in your area, asking all these questions. There is no difference (unless of course you enjoy spending time giving free advice).

He has already gotten well into the 2-4k range of free advice. I'm sure he feels he has gotten a great deal. Try that with any other "profession". Is it any wonder?

Whatever.... I believe that home inspectors need to get paid for their expertise. You can have a free sample but hand holding is out of the question. We can't make this a profession when we treat it as a shade tree mechanic. If you want the milk you have to buy the cow.

Dear Dr. Fritz. I found this web site through a Google search. My Doctor, Dr. POS, made, I think, the wrong diagnose. Here are my symptoms... In your best judgment do you think I have a case against him (with out seeing me in person)? I really thank you for your cyber time. Oh, and btw, I've copied him in on all of our discussions (insert smiley face here).


Terry



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Sister I-Joist Installation
[#49] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 6:23:11 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Terence McCann

Quote: Originally posted by hausdok

I think it's fine that you're a homeowner asking questions.

Some of the best and most informative discussions we've had on this board over the past decade were initiated by non-inspectors.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike


There is a difference between non-inspectors and freeloaders. Non-inspectors thank you for your time and then call in a professional. The freeloaded just keeps pushing on the tit. Consider someone calling you on the phone, in your area, asking all these questions. There is no difference (unless of course you enjoy spending time giving free advice).

He has already gotten well into the 2-4k range of free advice. I'm sure he feels he has gotten a great deal. Try that with any other "profession". Is it any wonder?

Whatever.... I believe that home inspectors need to get paid for their expertise. You can have a free sample but hand holding is out of the question. We can't make this a profession when we treat it as a shade tree mechanic. If you want the milk you have to buy the cow.

Dear Dr. Fritz. I found this web site through a Google search. My Doctor, Dr. POS, made, I think, the wrong diagnose. Here are my symptoms... In your best judgment do you think I have a case against him (with out seeing me in person)? I really thank you for your cyber time. Oh, and btw, I've copied him in on all of our discussions (insert smiley face here).
So, If he'd signed on under a fake name and said that he was a home inspector you wouldn't have had a problem with it?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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[#50] Posted: 06/20/2011 - 7:42:33 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Terence McCann

[quote]If you want the milk you have to buy the cow.
"Why go out for milk when you have a cow at home?"
-Al Bundy

Bill Kibbel, Historic & Commercial Building Inspections - Old House Resources
 
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