Marc Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Download Attachment: 035.JPG 134.95 KB Aside from common sense, isn't there a provision in the NEC that prohibits a general purpose, GFCI protected electrical outlet from being installed so close to the bathtub? Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantJones Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 The outlet can be next to, but not directly above a bathtub or shower. It looks like this outlet is directly above the tub's "footprint" so I would write it up as a safety hazard. Given the age that the fixtures appear to be, this pre-dates current codes but the hazard is there nonetheless. I believe it's code 406.8©. I don't have my codecheck book handy...just google which I hesitate to quote, especially in a report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Download Attachment: Aside from common sense, isn't there a provision in the NEC that prohibits a general purpose, GFCI protected electrical outlet from being installed so close to the bathtub? Nope. Grant's citation is correct. 406.8© Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall. Remarkably, this prohibition didn't appear until 1996. Before that, you could put a receptacle right over a tub or shower as long as it was a "weatherproof type." - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Thanks Guys Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubrooks Posted July 31, 2010 Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 I right them up as a safety hazard. Especially in new construction where a GFCI receptacle is installed at the end of a vanity top but within easy reach of a toddler paying around a tub. There is NO guarantee that the GFCI will never fail. Only an idiot would design the layout to put one there or go ahead and install it just because the plans show it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 31, 2010 Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 I right them up as a safety hazard. Especially in new construction where a GFCI receptacle is installed at the end of a vanity top but within easy reach of a toddler paying around a tub. There is NO guarantee that the GFCI will never fail. Only an idiot would design the layout to put one there or go ahead and install it just because the plans show it. What do you consider to be a safe distance between the receptacle and the tub or shower? - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted July 31, 2010 Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 In a house with PEX supply lines and PVC or ABS drain lines, how much does proximity matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 Water is a poor conductor of electricity in it's pure form but certain impurities commonly found in municipal and well water disassociate into positively and negatively charged ions and render the water quite conductive. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted July 31, 2010 Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 Is it conductive enough to carry significant current all the way back to the reservoir? Around here all the service piping is HDPE. To be truthful... the question was just a point to ponder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 Is it conductive enough to carry significant current all the way back to the reservoir? Around here all the service piping is HDPE. To be truthful... the question was just a point to ponder. Understood. 'Ponder' might as well be my middle name. It will conduct as far as the water goes until it finds the earth, either at the reservoir, the nearest metallic pipe fitting or at the nearest miniscule leak in the piping, and that conduction should easily be enough to shock someone. 1/1000 of one ampere, perhaps less, is uncomfortable to humans. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Is it conductive enough to carry significant current all the way back to the reservoir? Around here all the service piping is HDPE. To be truthful... the question was just a point to ponder. Understood. 'Ponder' might as well be my middle name. It will conduct as far as the water goes until it finds the earth, either at the reservoir, the nearest metallic pipe fitting or at the nearest miniscule leak in the piping, and that conduction should easily be enough to shock someone. 1/1000 of one ampere, perhaps less, is uncomfortable to humans. Marc Where I live, I can't get a measurable amount of current to flow through a glass of tap water. Can you? Download Attachment: Tapwater as Conductor Current.JPG 42.78 KB Please note: I am not saying it's safe to mix water & electricity. My only point is that, at least in my area, tap water doesn't contain enough ions to conduct measurable current. Add a little salt - such as is present on most peoples' skin - and the conductivity goes way up. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen D. Gazo Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 would the water conductivity change if the water went through a water softener first? thats a big bag of salt....interesting...lots of folks have them around here... Is it conductive enough to carry significant current all the way back to the reservoir? Around here all the service piping is HDPE. To be truthful... the question was just a point to ponder. Understood. 'Ponder' might as well be my middle name. It will conduct as far as the water goes until it finds the earth, either at the reservoir, the nearest metallic pipe fitting or at the nearest miniscule leak in the piping, and that conduction should easily be enough to shock someone. 1/1000 of one ampere, perhaps less, is uncomfortable to humans. Marc Where I live, I can't get a measurable amount of current to flow through a glass of tap water. Can you? Download Attachment: Tapwater as Conductor Current.JPG 42.78 KB Please note: I am not saying it's safe to mix water & electricity. My only point is that, at least in my area, tap water doesn't contain enough ions to conduct measurable current. Add a little salt - such as is present on most peoples' skin - and the conductivity goes way up. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Where I live, I can't get a measurable amount of current to flow through a glass of tap water. Can you? Please note: I am not saying it's safe to mix water & electricity. My only point is that, at least in my area, tap water doesn't contain enough ions to conduct measurable current. Add a little salt - such as is present on most peoples' skin - and the conductivity goes way up. - Jim Katen, Oregon The battery voltage in a common multimeter evidently won't move enough current through the water to deflect the meter, but try the experiment again with the voltage available from an electrical outlet. I did this a few decades ago. Connect a light bulb on a socket to an outlet plug and interrupt the closed circuit by cutting the wire open at one point. Place the two cut ends in your glass of water and see what happens. If you don't get illumination, check the amperage with your multimeter. Let us know. Maybe you'll prove your point. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 would the water conductivity change if the water went through a water softener first? thats a big bag of salt....interesting...lots of folks have them around here... A water softener will not render the water perfectly pure. Distilled water is the closest to pure water that I can think of. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen D. Gazo Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 I was thinkling the other way, that the saline would still be suspended within the water and then, maybe, creating a better conductor. I dont have one of those systems, but will give it a try next chance I have. steve would the water conductivity change if the water went through a water softener first? thats a big bag of salt....interesting...lots of folks have them around here... A water softener will not render the water perfectly pure. Distilled water is the closest to pure water that I can think of. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Where I live, I can't get a measurable amount of current to flow through a glass of tap water. Can you? Please note: I am not saying it's safe to mix water & electricity. My only point is that, at least in my area, tap water doesn't contain enough ions to conduct measurable current. Add a little salt - such as is present on most peoples' skin - and the conductivity goes way up. - Jim Katen, Oregon The battery voltage in a common multimeter evidently won't move enough current through the water to deflect the meter, but try the experiment again with the voltage available from an electrical outlet. I did this a few decades ago. Connect a light bulb on a socket to an outlet plug and interrupt the closed circuit by cutting the wire open at one point. Place the two cut ends in your glass of water and see what happens. If you don't get illumination, check the amperage with your multimeter. Let us know. Maybe you'll prove your point. Marc Look at the picture again, Marc. It shows the two leads from a circuit breaker immersed in water. The multi-meter is clamped around one of the leads. It shows no flow of current at its lowest setting. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 would the water conductivity change if the water went through a water softener first? thats a big bag of salt....interesting...lots of folks have them around here... As I understand it, a water softener removes calcium & magnesium ions from the water and replaces them with sodium ions. I don't know if sodium ions will cause water to conduct electricity better than calcium & magnesium ions. I suspect that, with regard to conducting, any old ion will do and that hard water will be more conductive both before and after it's been softened. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Where I live, I can't get a measurable amount of current to flow through a glass of tap water. Can you? Please note: I am not saying it's safe to mix water & electricity. My only point is that, at least in my area, tap water doesn't contain enough ions to conduct measurable current. Add a little salt - such as is present on most peoples' skin - and the conductivity goes way up. - Jim Katen, Oregon Nope. Click to Enlarge 49.93 KB Click to Enlarge 47.43 KB But I lay claim to the prettier cuticle![] Marc Check this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Nope. Your tester was clamped around just one of the wires, not both, right? But I lay claim to the prettier cuticle![] Woof! Ain't neither of us going to get a job as a hand model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Nope. Your tester was clamped around just one of the wires, not both, right? Right. Why? Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Nope. Your tester was clamped around just one of the wires, not both, right? Right. Why? Marc I just couldn't see from the picture. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubrooks Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 I don't think you're going to find, a clamp-on ammeter than will accurately measure in a range of 5 milliamps. The picture above shows the meter is reading 200 milliamps with an open circuit. Not real accurate in the low range. That's 0.2A to 0.005A. Take a guess why GF interrupters are designed to trip in the range of 5-6mA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 I don't think you're going to find, a clamp-on ammeter than will accurately measure in a range of 5 milliamps. The picture above shows the meter is reading 200 milliamps with an open circuit. Not real accurate in the low range. That's 0.2A to 0.005A. Take a guess why GF interrupters are designed to trip in the range of 5-6mA? Click to Enlarge 33.48 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Sheesh Jim! I hope you tested that GFCI before setting up your "experiment". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Jim, Would that GFCI trip if you stuck your finger in the water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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