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And, where's the State CE credit stuff? Why would anyone subject themselves to crotch pit HI educational fare if it wasn't at least going to get them CE's for the State?

Did I miss it somewhere.....(?)....

Right column of www.nachi.org/education.htm 1,200+ governmental accreditations and approvals. Before you click on that link though... be prepared to scroll. LOL

Kurt, I see that you are in Illinois. Click on this link: http://www.nachi.org/even-more-illinois ... ourses.htm and again, scroll down.

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Turns out that you've got me motivated.
www.nachi.org/benefits.htm has that effect on inspectors. Welcome. I see you are in Louisiana. You can now get all your Louisiana-approved continuing education online for free: http://www.nachi.org/lousiana-approved- ... ourses.htm

I tolerate the required CE hours, I don't benefit from them. Neither the LA CE's nor anything the societies have to offer is of any use to me except to meet the 24 hr requirement.

I satisfy my thirst for knowledge right here at TIJ.

Marc

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Here's the thing.....

I took a couple Nachi courses from one of the schmoes, and honestly, it was ridiculous. The instructor managed to get high school physics entirely backwards, it was full of factual errors, presentation was disjointed, and it was generally wretched.

Hier and I sat there for the full 3 hours, making tick marks on our napkins like boxing judges. It was a split decision with me noting 37 idiocies, and Hier knocking down 39. The ride back into the city was, more or less, a lot of head shaking disbelief.

The guys teaching the courses never managed to distinguish themselves in their first careers, so now they're embarrassing themselves in subsequent ones. I mean, jeeezus, is this it? I'll give you credit; what you got is "better" than ASHI, but I'd rather get a proctology exam from a guy with ice cold fingers than sit through these classes.

I guess the idea is, if I want to absorb schmoe knowledge from dweebs, I got options that are cheaper and easier than the Nachi. Prein's operation is pretty efficient, it's cheap, he's a good guy, he doesn't shoot off his mouth with lot of childishness and playing to the lowest common denominator mindset.....why wouldn't I go with Steve, and why would I go with Nachi?

Which leads to creditability. Where's your lobbyist? Where's your national presence with governmental agencies and the NAR? A bunch of cheesey supposed benefits held out to the rubes may keep focaccia on your table, but I just can't take that shit anymore. Give me something I can at least hang my hat on, that doesn't embarrass me having to "learn" from mouth breathers, and that I can take to my customers (who usually do their homework and research things like their chosen consultants professional associations).

The ability to broadcast non-realities to bozos is cheap; heck, look at the current Congressional/Executive Branch shenanigans. But, there's nothing backing it up. It's shouting into the ether; the only echo is some loon ex-carpenter that's decided they want to be a home inspector.

You've got the cheering section over there (what's that guy's name....Bushman, Bush-something) that seems like that guy in the movie that was always hanging around the two bit criminal, hoping a little chutzpah might rub off, or the brown noser everyone hates. Why the **** would I want to be part of anything that included that goofball?

You can blather all the childish zingers about membership numbers, what ASHI is or is not, what Nachi tries to be, etc., etc.... , but where's the beef? I'm not seeing it.

Which brings us to the current IR runaround. Is the big play a threat so folks will join the organization? Join, and we won't **** with you? Is that it?

I've spent my entire working life being half or totally embarrassed that I was lasso'ed into associations with bucket heads, and now there's a professional society whose pitch is "resistance is futile"...(?)....and they want me to join, and not just be lasso'ed into an association, but threatened that one must join or risk the Wrath of Kahn?

I talked about this a few times with my coffee drinking buddy Lubet, Northwestern law professor, Director of the Bartlit Center on Trial Strategies, consultant to multiple State Supreme Courts, Legal Historian, regularly published in Salon, Slate, etc., etc., etc., and he seems to find all manner of inconsistencies and legal conundrums with this approach.

How am I supposed to feel professional when I got really smart people on one side explaining how all this stuff actually (doesn't) work within English Common Law jurisprudential concepts, and on the other side there's some guy telling me "resistance is futile", and if I join I get to not be ****ed with about something that seems to have been traded off for the equivalent of a few bananas.

Whenever I talk with the ASHI stalwarts, I get a headache, but when I consider the Nachi alternative, I feel soiled.

I'm supposed to choose between feeling sick, or soiled. Shit, can't you put something together that isn't an embarrassment to this thing I've spent my life doing?

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Kurt, I take it from your reply that you have not successfully found what you said you "missed" in your post #50.

Let me refresh your memory. Here was your question:

And, where's the State CE credit stuff? Why would anyone subject themselves to crotch pit HI educational fare if it wasn't at least going to get them CE's for the State?

Did I miss it somewhere.....(?)....

And here was my reply:

"Right column of www.nachi.org/education.htm 1,200+ governmental accreditations and approvals. Before you click on that link though... be prepared to scroll. LOL

Kurt, I see that you are in Illinois. Click on this link: www.nachi.org/even-more-illinois-approv ... ourses.htm and again, scroll down."

--

I have two reasons for suspecting that you failed to click on the links I provided.

The first is that I couldn't help notice that you did not acknowledge that I satisfactorily answered your question with those links.

The second is that you reflect on what appears to be a classroom-style course. Here is a segment of your post:

The instructor managed to get high school physics entirely backwards, it was full of factual errors, presentation was disjointed, and it was generally wretched.

Hier and I sat there for the full 3 hours, making tick marks on our napkins like boxing judges. It was a split decision with me noting 37 idiocies, and Hier knocking down 39. The ride back into the city was, more or less, a lot of head shaking disbelief.

The guys teaching the courses never managed to distinguish themselves in their first careers, so now they're embarrassing themselves in subsequent ones.

This is perplexing to me as the two links I provided to answer your question about "CE's for the State" lead to a long list of state-approved online courses, not classroom courses that you would "ride back into the city" from as you say. Let me give them both to you again. The first link is to a list of courses with links to the governmental accreditations and approvals they have been awarded. Scroll down the right column to view. The second link is to a list of CE approvals awarded to InterNACHI by your state of Illinois. And again, scroll down after clicking on them:

www.nachi.org/education.htm

www.nachi.org/even-more-illinois-approv ... ourses.htm

You mentioned "the presentation" and the "instructor." Our state-approved courses are online.

InterNACHI's online course development often includes collaboration among many experts and inspectors from around the world. For example, it is not unusual for InterNACHI’s online courses to be the product of dozens of contributors. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by often lacking in international collaborative development.

InterNACHI's online course developers can hire many experts to contribute to each course. Often, in online video courses, the instruction is presented by one or more renowned experts. In contrast, classroom instructors, though perhaps competent to teach a particular subject, are rarely international experts. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by denying renowned expertise instruction to inspectors and limiting them to a local pool of talent.

InterNACHI's online courses often utilize more than one instructor, with more than one area of expertise. In contrast, most classroom courses are taught by only one instructor. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by limiting the number of expert instructors per course.

InterNACHI's online courses are reviewed for accuracy before being released. Online courses are also subjected to industry-wide peer review forever. In contrast, classroom instruction is rarely reviewed by anyone. The author of this article personally knows of a physics professor who had been teaching the use of an incorrect formula for over 30 years before the error was caught. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by failing to correct misinformation given to inspectors in a timely fashion.

InterNACHI's downloadable, printable online course material is reviewed, edited and improved over time. In contrast, classroom texts are less frequently updated. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being less able to provide inspectors with current course material.

InterNACHI's online courses contain pictures and on-location video that permit the inspector to virtually accompany the instructors on inspections of many actual structures and components. In contrast, classroom courses can’t take inspectors into crawlspaces or on roofs. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by failing to provide inspectors with virtual, real-situation training.

InterNACHI's online courses move at each inspector’s desired pace. Online courses can be stopped and re-started. Online video can be paused. In contrast, classroom courses move at only the instructor’s speed. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being unable to teach at each inspector’s own pace.

InterNACHI's online courses are edited to cut out set-up time, off-topic discussions, bathroom breaks, lunchtime, etc. In contrast, classroom courses contain much wasted time. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by diluting the training time with things that don't increase inspector competence.

You also mentioned:

The ride back into the city.

InterNACHI's online courses are available all the time, anytime, from anywhere. In contrast, classroom courses for the inspection industry are few and far between. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by limiting access to education for inspectors.

InterNACHI's online courses are available all the time, anytime, from anywhere. In contrast, classroom courses for the inspection industry are few and far between. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by limiting access to education for inspectors.

InterNACHI's online courses are available when each inspector wants to take them. In contrast, classroom courses have inflexible schedules that require inspectors to attend when it is inconvenient, when the inspector is ill, when the inspector is tired, etc. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by forcing inspectors to study and learn at a preset schedule.

InterNACHI's online courses contain numerous short quizzes that assure the inspector has learned each section before moving on to the next. These quizzes are graded instantly, and often alert the inspector to incorrect answers immediately. Some even have built-in intelligence, which recognizes each inspector’s unique areas of weakness, and reviews those areas until the inspector grasps them. Classroom courses typically have fewer quizzes, without instant grading. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being less diligent about assuring that each inspector has learned and understands every concept being taught.

InterNACHI's online courses permit inspectors to go back and review areas of weakness. For example, InterNACHI’s online video courses permit the inspector to rewind and replay them over and over. In contrast, classroom material is typically covered only once. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being unable to allow inspectors go back and repeat material to strengthen his/her particular areas of weakness.

InterNACHI's online courses permit inspectors to take the course over again. In contrast, classroom courses are typically taken only once. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being all but impossible for inspectors to re-take over and over.

InterNACHI's online courses contain quizzes and final exams that are graded instantly. Instant grading permits the inspector to be alerted to areas of weakness while still engaged in the course. In contrast, classroom courses typically don’t grade instantly. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being unable to instantly grade each quiz and exam.

InterNACHI's online courses and quizzes are graded consistently over time and around the world. In contrast, classroom courses grade easier or harder, depending on where and when the inspector takes each course. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being unable to grade inspectors consistently.

It is financially feasible to offer advanced courses online. An online course need be developed only once, yet can run for years. In contrast, classroom courses usually must be of an introductory nature to attract enough students to pay for an instructor each time it is offered. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being unable to financially sustain advanced course offerings.

It is financially feasible to offer specialty courses online. An online course need be developed only once, yet can run for years. In contrast, classroom courses usually must have a common enough appeal of subject matter in order to attract enough students to pay for an instructor each time it is offered. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being unable to financially sustain specialty course offerings.

InterNACHI's online courses offer inspectors a wide variety of choices in both level and subject matter. In contrast, classroom courses are fewer and farther between. Compared to online courses, classroom courses harm consumers by being less likely to offer the training inspectors need, when and where they need it.

InterNACHI's online courses often provide an Internet forum for all current students, graduates, instructors, experts, developers and interested parties from around the world to interact with each other and discuss the course. These course-specific forums provide continuing education to inspectors long after completing the course. Classroom courses harm consumers by rarely providing such widespread, post-course interaction.

In summary, InterNACHI's online courses allow inspectors to study and learn at little or no cost, without having to travel or lose business, when and where they want, with well-developed, accurate courses taught by experts, using updated course material, pictures and video, at their own pace and schedule, with the ability to review and repeat, and with the assurance they'll end up with a thorough understanding of the chosen topic.

In response to your question about where our state-approved CE courses are, I posted links that lead to our many state-approved online courses, to which you responded with a post about a bad experience you had at some classroom presentation. Thank you. Your detailed recount of some instructor's live, classroom presentation supports my contention that the 1,200+ governmental accreditations and approvals that InterNACHI has been awarded for its online courses, without any help from a "lobbyist" are well deserved.

And in case you missed that link again, here it is one more time: www.nachi.org/education.htm Don't forget to scroll down!

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Information that is useful to a home inspector is specific to the climate he works in. It's specific to the particular materials and methods common to his part of the country. Lastly, materials and methods change with time, something anyone who reads construction journals would know. Home inspection education is highly dynamic in several ways. A live classroom accommodates a two-way discussion that's more engaging than a computer monitor and gives the instructor an opportunity to constantly tweak and improve his presentation.

You're the type that presents well on the surface but the substance of your education product sucks to high heaven.

Your writing has dollars written all over it. It motivated by financial profit instead of education. It's been that way with the societies ever since ASHI first gained competition.

Take that writing of yours elsewhere, Nick. It has no place here.

Marc

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No, it does have a place here. Nick's finally been drawn not of his bunker and joined the larger world for an honest debate about the weirdness of a privately owned professional society.

I concede his points. His online classes satisfy State requirements, and ASHI should be embarrassed they haven't done something similar.

I'm also enthused Nick took the bait and is finally speaking in something other than childish chest thumping proclamations.

So, address the other questions.

Why the bunker mentality? Why no national recognition from anyone/anything that matters? What's with the implied threat of "join, or we might **** with you", about some ****ing patent a loser managed to fool the USPO into granting?

I could give a squat about online education in the HI world; it all sucks. What I want to know is, how can Nacho have a shred of credibility as a professional society when it's privately held and doesn't conform with anything one might associate with a professional society, like democratic structure, votes for direction of the organization, a BOD, published lists of the accrediting agencies supposedly approving Nachis entrance exam, associations with the NAR, HUD, code authoring agencies, etc., etc.,....?

I would love it if there was some competition in our micro universe. Nick says he's a professional organization; here's his big chance to prove it by answering legitimate questions in a public forum.

Nick, you're out of the bunker and the microphone is on. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

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One more thing......full disclosure......

Some number of years ago, nick asked if I wanted to be president of his organization. I was intrigued; nick is not incompetent, and I thought it might be a chance to move the profession in a good direction.

I was informed that I would not be able to implement practices one might normally associate with a profession. IOW, it was figurehead status, not executive. The whole idea of a society with an executive not allowed to function as one was interesting, and began my curiosity with an owner/operator model for a professional society.

I have not been able to find any other professional society with similar governance. Chicago is home to hundreds of professional society HQ's, and I couldn't find even one.

The form alone is enough cause for discussion.

Nick, if you could, maybe extemporize on professional society structure, after you've answered my questions.

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Which is a shame. I'd join his organization. Why not? No one outside the world of HI-dom knows or cares. Shoot, no one inside our micro-universe knows or cares except a couple of Nick's acolytes.

We could all join and work for positive change from within......[:-angel] Get a lot of press, exposure, people asking questions.

Maybe those people asking questions could get our friend to answer some.

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He's the kind of guy that likes prison. There's a name for those kinds of guys on the inside.

I gave Nick a chance to validate himself and his organization, and he cut and run. Poor guy might want to think about that.

If Nick wants to come in here and answer questions, I'm a mod, I'll set it up in any way he wants, with the single requirement that he answers questions.

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He's the kind of guy that likes prison. There's a name for those kinds of guys on the inside.

I gave Nick a chance to validate himself and his organization, and he cut and run. Poor guy might want to think about that.

If Nick wants to come in here and answer questions, I'm a mod, I'll set it up in any way he wants, with the single requirement that he answers questions.

John McKenna is Nicks IR boy... In Johns eyes his master puppeteer can do no wrong. As long as Nick supports John and his homemade IR certification he's a happy camper.......

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Exactly. He's just another schmo.

Here we are, we're lucky enough to have someone like Loden involved in our little dipsquat enterprise. But, this guy chooses Nick.

Loden's a guy that actually is a rocket scientist, ethical, moral, fighting the good fight. Why wouldn't schmo boy want to associate with a Loden, or other's like him?

He'd rather hide under Nick. He's not even a schmo; he's schmo larvae.

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And in a puff of smoke, he was gone.....

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore this thread. It looks as though we have drifted off topic. If you start a thread titled "Questions for InterNACHI" I promise to answer every one of them. Feel free to ask anything you want, even personal questions if you like. If you ask more than one question per post, number them please. If I don't have the answer, I'll find someone at InterNACHI who does.

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gave Nick a chance to validate himself and his organization, and he cut and run. Poor guy might want to think about that.

If Nick wants to come in here and answer questions, I'm a mod, I'll set it up in any way he wants, with the single requirement that he answers questions.

Agreed. Where is the thread? I'll answer any questions you have. Or have you "cut and run?"
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He must have been an attorney in a previous career. He writes with an evasive and manipulative technique characteristic of an attorney in action. It's not about our profession but about a leech that feeds on it.

It's low. So this is what goes on at InterNACHI?

Marc

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And in a puff of smoke, he was gone.....

Yep. I accepted his challenge and his terms and he ran out of the ring. In a puff of smoke, Kurt was gone.

I think they are afraid.

Try me buddy. Post something, any HI topic. Just don't play games. Drop the subterfuge, the false faces.

Marc

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Yes,

Right now, the world of home inspections and arguing with you is probably the last thing on Kurt's mind, Nick. Give him some space and when he's taken care of what he needs to take care of, he'll be back.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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