Mark P Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I don't ever recall seeing a panel like this in a screened porch. A wind driven rain will get it wet. I assume this is a type 1 panel suitable for indoors. I have not looked inside the panel yet, I do the inspection tomorrow. I saw this when I was dropping off the radon test. I'm going to try a research this some more, but figured I'd ask the brain trust what would you say about this? The house is in a tiny town and I doubt there is any code enforcement. Click to Enlarge 39.29 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 It's a NEMA 1 meant to be recessed into an interior wall that's installed on the surface. I'd write it up...Installation violates listing...I think. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dirks Jr Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 Ditto. I'd be all over writing that up due to the location of the panel. Screened in porch sure, but right next to the edge. I wouldn't hesitate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 In my area, it would depend on what direction it faces. If the porch faced north, that panel would never get wet - heck the screen door would never get wet. If it faced south or west, it would get soaked on a regular basis. Marc's concern could be addressed by building a little wooden box around it. Voila! It's recessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 In my area, it would depend on what direction it faces. If the porch faced north, that panel would never get wet - heck the screen door would never get wet. If it faced south or west, it would get soaked on a regular basis. Marc's concern could be addressed by building a little wooden box around it. Voila! It's recessed. Then put up a window or two, easier than moving the panel. But I would be looking for rust inside there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resqman Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 Dont have to move it, just swap it for an exterior grade panel box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjbrown2 Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 General Question: Problem area noted and the decision to write it up may be a forthcoming. How comfortable are y'all in general about supplying suggestions or solutions (in writing) to problems that you find (to your clients) given the litigious nature of our society? Especially when, in the process, you might be practicing engineering depending on the subject area which as my Momma used to say might get somebody's "dandruff up." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 General Question: Problem area noted and the decision to write it up may be a forthcoming. How comfortable are y'all in general about supplying suggestions or solutions (in writing) to problems that you find (to your clients) given the litigious nature of our society? Especially when, in the process, you might be practicing engineering depending on the subject area which as my Momma used to say might get somebody's "dandruff up." I propose a solution to every problem that I find, in writing. I try not to practice engineering. This limits litigation, it doesn't encourage it. Examples: The furnace is bad. Replace the furnace. The retaining wall is leaning out five inches over it's 56" height. Hire an engineer to design and oversee repairs or, if necessary, replacemnt of the wall. Rain leaks around the window in the rear bedroom. The window was improperly installed and lacks proper flashing. Hire a contractor to remove and reinstall the window properly, with correct flashings this time. Do not accept repairs based solely on the application of caulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 I make suggestions on 'course of repair' lots of times in several fields because I've contracted in many of them myself and still have my licenses in electrical and HVAC. My degree in EE helps a little, even though I'm not registered with the state. I seldom refer to an engineer and the biggest reason is that if I do it in this small city I live in, the client is likely to spend hours upon hours looking for one then finally give up and do nothing, which increases the chance of a problem and of litigation involving me. Sort of like Katin. My approach has resulted in not a single 'incident' in over 10 years. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottpat Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 General Question: Problem area noted and the decision to write it up may be a forthcoming. How comfortable are y'all in general about supplying suggestions or solutions (in writing) to problems that you find (to your clients) given the litigious nature of our society? Especially when, in the process, you might be practicing engineering depending on the subject area which as my Momma used to say might get somebody's "dandruff up." The key is to not design the repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlparham Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 General Question: Problem area noted and the decision to write it up may be a forthcoming. How comfortable are y'all in general about supplying suggestions or solutions (in writing) to problems that you find (to your clients) given the litigious nature of our society? Especially when, in the process, you might be practicing engineering depending on the subject area which as my Momma used to say might get somebody's "dandruff up." The key is to not design the repair. Bingo again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 I propose a solution to every problem that I find, in writing. I try not to practice engineering. This limits litigation, it doesn't encourage it. I do the same. I tell folks that there isn't just one way to skin a cat and not to think that whatever I suggest is the only solution, I point out that if you ask 20 contractors to do a job you might end up with at least ten solutions. How well the solution works depends on the contractor's experience; so they need to vet their contractors closely and ask for references. It's worked for me forever. Over 17 years in, no arbitrations, no lawsuits. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyDP Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 From the pic, there are two runs on the bottom of the panel, shouldn't those be in conduit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 From the pic, there are two runs on the bottom of the panel, shouldn't those be in conduit? Yes, or replaced with MC. NM cables shouldn't be installed where it would be exposed to damage. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 From the pic, there are two runs on the bottom of the panel, shouldn't those be in conduit? If those are NM cables, they shouldn't be in a place where they can get wet or be damp at all. It doesn't matter whether or not they're in conduit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baird Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 The pictured arrangement is very common in my area, and represents what was a standard "affordable" retrofit for a residential upgrade. I'm not sure when the codes were adopted statewide, but plenty of those are still in use around here. Whenever I see it I just point out that it doesn't meet current code, and any remedy applied should be the electrician's choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark P Posted October 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 The pictured arrangement is very common in my area, and represents what was a standard "affordable" retrofit for a residential upgrade. I'm not sure when the codes were adopted statewide, but plenty of those are still in use around here. Whenever I see it I just point out that it doesn't meet current code, and any remedy applied should be the electrician's choice. This was in a town with a population of 550, no code enforcement now and I'm sure there was none in the past. The home was built around 1930 and was the happy home to an elderly lady for many years until recently. On one hand I know what needs to be written up; on the other hand I approach the situation with the realization that no one in this town has a lot of money. Every repair or upgrade ever made on this home was done by friends or relatives that were well intended, but not always the most qualified. I grew up in a family that did things for themselves regardless of if they new how to do it or not. If we did not know how, we figured it out. Rules and code were for people who had money. People without money just made it the best they could and if that means sticking an indoor electrical panel on the front porch then fine. This home has many many issues that need improvement and they got written up, but while I was working on the report one fact kept coming back to me: a lady raised her family and lived to grow very old in this house and despite all the ?safety concerns? and improperly installed components she made it out alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyDP Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 While I understand your sentiments, it's our duty to observe and report. Doing this properly should cover our tails in the process. Anything less, in my opinion, is a disservice to our clients. Let them decide the importance of our findings. Your mileage may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 The pictured arrangement is very common in my area, and represents what was a standard "affordable" retrofit for a residential upgrade. I'm not sure when the codes were adopted statewide, but plenty of those are still in use around here. Whenever I see it I just point out that it doesn't meet current code, and any remedy applied should be the electrician's choice. This was in a town with a population of 550, no code enforcement now and I'm sure there was none in the past. The home was built around 1930 and was the happy home to an elderly lady for many years until recently. On one hand I know what needs to be written up; on the other hand I approach the situation with the realization that no one in this town has a lot of money. Every repair or upgrade ever made on this home was done by friends or relatives that were well intended, but not always the most qualified. I grew up in a family that did things for themselves regardless of if they new how to do it or not. If we did not know how, we figured it out. Rules and code were for people who had money. People without money just made it the best they could and if that means sticking an indoor electrical panel on the front porch then fine. This home has many many issues that need improvement and they got written up, but while I was working on the report one fact kept coming back to me: a lady raised her family and lived to grow very old in this house and despite all the ?safety concerns? and improperly installed components she made it out alive. I understand where that's coming from. FWIW my reports don't answer to those things. They answer only to the condition of the house. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbsoluteInspector Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Definitely check for water damage if there was none I would just not a precaution in the report that they should recess it or put a panel to block it from the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Davenport Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 That is a nema 1 panel. It does not require recessing in a wall. It can be mounted on the surface in a dry location. It is not rated to be installed in a damp or wet location. Those NM cables are also not listed to be installed in a wet / damp location unless they are type UF Replacing them with MC is ok IF you use mc rated for outdoor use. putting regular NM cable in conduit outside is not allowed. The inside of a conduit run outside is considered a wet location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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