Nolan Kienitz Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 One development in North Dallas that was built with mostly (if not all) FPE panels had a pro-active HOA. The HOA wrote a letter to all the homeowners and advised them that if they ever planned on selling their home they first were required to replace the FPE panel before listing the home. Of course many had already been replaced, but it was a good pro-active move on the HOA's part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Why I consider them defective.... 1) The breakers, previous explanation by Katen. They don't work. I have personal experience with this if anyone's interested. 2) The breaker to bus connection....it can't work. The goofy "H" shaped receptor doesn't/can't grip the breaker. Something that's designed to not work, imho, is defective. The ASHI thing....was the right move. Report the material. If one is concerned, they are allowed to report whatever they want. Given the extreme individualistic nature of this thing we do and the insistence on personal prerogatives, I'm surprised anyone complained about it. The other societies will follow suit. They'll carp, crow, and preen, but they'll change if they haven't already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Breslawski Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Reminds me of an area surrounding an intersection of several interstate highways called 'can of worms' in Rochester, NY. Marc Funny. That can of worms isn't nearly as bad as it used to be Marc. When I was a kid, I always heard the radio traffic reporter talking about it and assumed that there was a big can full of worms somewhere around here.... My apologies for the completely off topic reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlparham Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 In my mind defective is the wrong term. Defective is defined as imperfect or faulty. Everything is imperfect. I am imperfect as are you. Do you consider yourself defective? In my opinion a court of law should define a defective product. Of course you are free to use any term you wish. Like I said, I identify these panels and explain the issues. You can quibble about whether or not the panels are defective. But there should be no question about the breakers. A large percentage of them are, in fact, defective. That is, they are improperly constructed and will fail to perform to the standard that they're supposed to perform to. This was actually decided in the NJ courts and Reliance, who bought FPE admits it. Please provide me with a reference to a court ruling that says the panel, breakers, and any associated products or systems are defective. I would not have an FPE or Zinsco panel in my home. And I tell my customers the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Oh come on..... A court ruling is the necessary component to determine if it's defective or not? If you say so. But, that's where I go renegade. I'm off the reservation when it gets to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 In my mind defective is the wrong term. Defective is defined as imperfect or faulty. Everything is imperfect. I am imperfect as are you. Do you consider yourself defective? In my opinion a court of law should define a defective product. Of course you are free to use any term you wish. Like I said, I identify these panels and explain the issues. You can quibble about whether or not the panels are defective. But there should be no question about the breakers. A large percentage of them are, in fact, defective. That is, they are improperly constructed and will fail to perform to the standard that they're supposed to perform to. This was actually decided in the NJ courts and Reliance, who bought FPE admits it. Please provide me with a reference to a court ruling that says the panel, breakers, and any associated products or systems are defective. I would not have an FPE or Zinsco panel in my home. And I tell my customers the same. UL listing acquited via deceptive means Note 'C' on second page. It isn't a court ruling but it admits the lack of a valid UL listing. Reason enough for an HI to pounce on it? Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 In my mind defective is the wrong term. Defective is defined as imperfect or faulty. Everything is imperfect. I am imperfect as are you. Do you consider yourself defective? In my opinion a court of law should define a defective product. Of course you are free to use any term you wish. Like I said, I identify these panels and explain the issues. You can quibble about whether or not the panels are defective. But there should be no question about the breakers. A large percentage of them are, in fact, defective. That is, they are improperly constructed and will fail to perform to the standard that they're supposed to perform to. This was actually decided in the NJ courts and Reliance, who bought FPE admits it. Please provide me with a reference to a court ruling that says the panel, breakers, and any associated products or systems are defective. I would not have an FPE or Zinsco panel in my home. And I tell my customers the same. New Jersey Superior Court, Docket L-2904-97. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Class_ ... lement.php Download Attachment: FPE NJ Superior Court.pdf 1125.81 KB Download Attachment: FPEnotice12-05.doc 36.28 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlparham Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 In my mind defective is the wrong term. Defective is defined as imperfect or faulty. Everything is imperfect. I am imperfect as are you. Do you consider yourself defective? In my opinion a court of law should define a defective product. Of course you are free to use any term you wish. Like I said, I identify these panels and explain the issues. You can quibble about whether or not the panels are defective. But there should be no question about the breakers. A large percentage of them are, in fact, defective. That is, they are improperly constructed and will fail to perform to the standard that they're supposed to perform to. This was actually decided in the NJ courts and Reliance, who bought FPE admits it. Please provide me with a reference to a court ruling that says the panel, breakers, and any associated products or systems are defective. I would not have an FPE or Zinsco panel in my home. And I tell my customers the same. New Jersey Superior Court, Docket L-2904-97. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Class_ ... lement.php Download Attachment: FPE NJ Superior Court.pdf 1125.81?KB Download Attachment: FPEnotice12-05.doc 36.28?KB FPE and Reliance were found guilty of fraud. The ruling did not determine if the breakers are defective. Some FPE breakers do still have UL listing. Do you distinguish between the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 In my mind defective is the wrong term. Defective is defined as imperfect or faulty. Everything is imperfect. I am imperfect as are you. Do you consider yourself defective? In my opinion a court of law should define a defective product. Of course you are free to use any term you wish. Like I said, I identify these panels and explain the issues. You can quibble about whether or not the panels are defective. But there should be no question about the breakers. A large percentage of them are, in fact, defective. That is, they are improperly constructed and will fail to perform to the standard that they're supposed to perform to. This was actually decided in the NJ courts and Reliance, who bought FPE admits it. Please provide me with a reference to a court ruling that says the panel, breakers, and any associated products or systems are defective. I would not have an FPE or Zinsco panel in my home. And I tell my customers the same. New Jersey Superior Court, Docket L-2904-97. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Class_ ... lement.php Download Attachment: FPE NJ Superior Court.pdf 1125.81?KB Download Attachment: FPEnotice12-05.doc 36.28?KB FPE and Reliance were found guilty of fraud. The ruling did not determine if the breakers are defective. Some FPE breakers do still have UL listing. Do you distinguish between the two? Somehow, I think we're not talking about FPE panels anymore. I see 'FPE' on a panel, I write it up. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlparham Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 The name of the thread is "Defective Electrical Panels". OK, I'll shut up. My whole point, and I should have stated it earlier, was that I believe that home inspectors should be careful reporting items as defective based on their opinion. If the product is a POS describe it as a POS. For products with a history of controversy I might say, but probably not, "In my opinion the product is defective". The term "defective" has a very strong meaning in the consumer's mind. A savvy home seller might have a good argument that the panel is not defective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 To be clear, I never use the term. I present facts, which speak pretty well for themselves. And then, of course, an electrician comes in and says otherwise. Hardly any of my customers actually change the damn things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Amaral Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 I did a commercial inspection for a large fish-processing facility around here and the electrical work was huge, neat, tidy, well-marked and such. I contacted the guy personally and he has become my 'go-to' guy for all odd-things we find in inspection work and backs me up. You have to find one of the higher-level guys in your area to be 'your guy'.. go meet him, bond with him.. This guy does work for utilities, cities/towns, hospitals and the like and has been a huge help to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 One must understand that a licensed guy here is a Local 134 guy and there is a party line that doesn't include FPE. Which is funny, because 134 always gets behind any idea that creates work. If I could sell the Local on the idea, it would be a tidal wave of guys promoting replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Jones Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 As I stated earlier, I have no problem writing these panels up for replacement. I explain to my clients the issue at the inspection, and in my report it clearly states that replacement is recommended. They are a safety concern. http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Fe ... 06921.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector57 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 This is my boiler plate for FPE stab-loc panels. The electrical panel in this home is a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc. This type of panel is known for higher incidence of failures / safety problems. It is my opinion that it is a fire hazard; REPLACE the panel. See http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm for more information. And by the way our state mandates using the term deficient and defines the term by the same mandate. "(5) Deficiency-- In the reasonable judgment of the inspector, a condition that: (A) adversely and materially affects performance of a system, or component; or the (B) constitutes a hazard to life, limb, or property as specified by these standards of practice." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 . . . FPE and Reliance were found guilty of fraud. The ruling did not determine if the breakers are defective. Actually, it did. The breakers were unable to pass the UL testing procedure - they were defective - and the company falsified the testing to cover it up -- thus the fraud. Some FPE breakers do still have UL listing. Do you distinguish between the two? *All* of them have a UL listing. The entire issue is that the manufacturer faked the testing that made that listing possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 The name of the thread is "Defective Electrical Panels". OK, I'll shut up. My whole point, and I should have stated it earlier, was that I believe that home inspectors should be careful reporting items as defective based on their opinion. If the product is a POS describe it as a POS. The term "defective" is no more or less an opinion than the term "POS." If you think that one is an opinion, and the other isn't think more carefully about it. . . . The term "defective" has a very strong meaning in the consumer's mind. A savvy home seller might have a good argument that the panel is not defective. Home sellers have good arguments against pretty much everything that we say. If you say that a panel is a POS, the home seller might have a good argument that it's not. If you say that the sky is blue, the home seller will have a good argument that the sky is red. The fact that the term "defective" has a strong meaning in the consumer's mind is a really good reason to use the term. When you start casting about for a term with less meaning, your "meaning" gets watered down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 This is my boiler plate for FPE stab-loc panels. The electrical panel in this home is a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc. This type of panel is known for higher incidence of failures / safety problems. It is my opinion that it is a fire hazard; REPLACE the panel. See http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm for more information. And by the way our state mandates using the term deficient and defines the term by the same mandate. "(5) Deficiency-- In the reasonable judgment of the inspector, a condition that: (A) adversely and materially affects performance of a system, or component; or the (B) constitutes a hazard to life, limb, or property as specified by these standards of practice." So, I'm curious. How come the word "deficient" doesn't show up in your boilerplate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector57 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 This is my boiler plate for FPE stab-loc panels. The electrical panel in this home is a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc. This type of panel is known for higher incidence of failures / safety problems. It is my opinion that it is a fire hazard; REPLACE the panel. See http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm for more information. And by the way our state mandates using the term deficient and defines the term by the same mandate. "(5) Deficiency-- In the reasonable judgment of the inspector, a condition that: (A) adversely and materially affects performance of a system, or component; or the (B) constitutes a hazard to life, limb, or property as specified by these standards of practice." So, I'm curious. How come the word "deficient" doesn't show up in your boilerplate? Part of the mandated report form. There is a check box marked "deficient" that precedes the section. In the form, Each sections comments has 4 mandated boxes for Inspected, Not Inspected, Not Present, and Deficient with all of the comments following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 . . Part of the mandated report form. There is a check box marked "deficient" that precedes the section. In the form, Each sections comments has 4 mandated boxes for Inspected, Not Inspected, Not Present, and Deficient with all of the comments following. I see. Charming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Kienitz Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Here is a PDF of the most recent mandated TREC Template that we are required to use in Texas. I think I uploaded this new version to another thread not too long ago. Download Attachment: REI-7-5-PropertyInspectionReport.pdf 127.69 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 My condolences..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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