Darren Posted May 13, 2016 Report Share Posted May 13, 2016 Apartments converted to condos. First photo shows FP main disconnect at meter room. Second photo is new sub panel. 30 amp service, No 4 wire feed, ground and neutral together. What would you guys write? Click to Enlarge 60.46 KB Click to Enlarge 49.72 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted May 13, 2016 Report Share Posted May 13, 2016 Punt it. Green colored wires shouldn't be used for carrying voltage because some folks might actually think its a ground wire and get shocked. FPE breakers have a reputation for catastrophic failure because they fail to open when they're supposed to. It causes wires to overheat and eventually start a fire. Neutral wires should not make contact with ground wires beyond the main disconnect. Ground wires are for safety only and shouldn't be used to carry neutral currents. Ask your electrician to examine the entire electrical installation and bring it up to current standards. If he says current standards don't apply to older buildings, fire him and find someone else. Electricity doesn't know how old the building is and will start a fire and shock folks just as easily as in a new one. Somewhere along those lines. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 13, 2016 Report Share Posted May 13, 2016 I'd probably also include something about salvaging old apartment equipment for a condo conversion being chickenshit. Install new equipment with the number of circuits and distribution one would get if the place was new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted May 15, 2016 Report Share Posted May 15, 2016 "chickenshit." Three syllables, yeah, that works. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted May 16, 2016 Report Share Posted May 16, 2016 The 3 wire feed issue would depend on when the sub panel was installed as to whether or not its an enforcable issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 16, 2016 Report Share Posted May 16, 2016 The 3 wire feed issue would depend on when the sub panel was installed as to whether or not its an enforcable issue. Home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement. The NEC never allowed grounds and neutrals to be connected in a sub panel in the same building. In addition to what Marc said, I'd mention the improper jumper between the main lugs at the sub panel and the problems with an upside down breaker in the FPE panel. The green wire at the main lug is a giveaway that this entire installation is not to be trusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted May 16, 2016 Report Share Posted May 16, 2016 The 3 wire feed issue would depend on when the sub panel was installed as to whether or not its an enforcable issue. Home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement. The NEC never allowed grounds and neutrals to be connected in a sub panel in the same building. In addition to what Marc said, I'd mention the improper jumper between the main lugs at the sub panel and the problems with an upside down breaker in the FPE panel. The green wire at the main lug is a giveaway that this entire installation is not to be trusted. You might want to do some research to find out when a 4 wire feed for a sub panel was actually adopted by the NEC.The 3 wire feed was accepted for many years before the change was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 16, 2016 Report Share Posted May 16, 2016 Ask your electrician to examine the entire electrical installation and bring it up to current standards. If he says current standards don't apply to older buildings, fire him and find someone else. Electricity doesn't know how old the building is and will start a fire and shock folks just as easily as in a new one. I kinda like that. I think I'll steal it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted May 16, 2016 Report Share Posted May 16, 2016 The 3 wire feed issue would depend on when the sub panel was installed as to whether or not its an enforcable issue. Home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement. The NEC never allowed grounds and neutrals to be connected in a sub panel in the same building. In addition to what Marc said, I'd mention the improper jumper between the main lugs at the sub panel and the problems with an upside down breaker in the FPE panel. The green wire at the main lug is a giveaway that this entire installation is not to be trusted. You might want to do some research to find out when a 4 wire feed for a sub panel was actually adopted by the NEC.The 3 wire feed was accepted for many years before the change was made. Youre right home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement,Suggesting that something that may not of been a code violation at the time of install is very tough to convince a home owner to repair/change. Thats like saying every house you inspect should be gfi or afci protected whether or not it was code when the house was built,or the last time it was remodeled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 The 3 wire feed issue would depend on when the sub panel was installed as to whether or not its an enforcable issue. Home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement. The NEC never allowed grounds and neutrals to be connected in a sub panel in the same building. In addition to what Marc said, I'd mention the improper jumper between the main lugs at the sub panel and the problems with an upside down breaker in the FPE panel. The green wire at the main lug is a giveaway that this entire installation is not to be trusted. You might want to do some research to find out when a 4 wire feed for a sub panel was actually adopted by the NEC.The 3 wire feed was accepted for many years before the change was made. The 3-wire feed for sub panels in *separate buildings* was allowed and was only recently prohibited (2008?). Sub panels in the same building have almost always been required to have their neutrals and grounding wires (if there were any) separated. (The 1918 NEC was the first to prohibit rebonding the the neutral at a sub panel.) Until 1962, this wasn't much of an issue, because most cables didn't have grounding wires. Since then, the NEC required a 4-wire feeder (if, of course, the panel had 120/240 volts). We both know that this rule was often ignored, but it was still an NEC requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 The 3 wire feed issue would depend on when the sub panel was installed as to whether or not its an enforcable issue. Home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement. The NEC never allowed grounds and neutrals to be connected in a sub panel in the same building. In addition to what Marc said, I'd mention the improper jumper between the main lugs at the sub panel and the problems with an upside down breaker in the FPE panel. The green wire at the main lug is a giveaway that this entire installation is not to be trusted. You might want to do some research to find out when a 4 wire feed for a sub panel was actually adopted by the NEC.The 3 wire feed was accepted for many years before the change was made. Youre right home inspectors have nothing to do with enforcement,Suggesting that something that may not of been a code violation at the time of install is very tough to convince a home owner to repair/change. Thats like saying every house you inspect should be gfi or afci protected whether or not it was code when the house was built,or the last time it was remodeled. You're not understanding the man. He's saying electricity doesn't know what the code is. Electricity, like many things, can be dangerous. It's got nothing to do with how old the house is. Like I say sometimes, code ain't my daddy. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 Plummen, the Property Maintenance Code states that life safety improvements are required. GFCIs and AFCIs are life safety items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Plummen, the Property Maintenance Code states that life safety improvements are required. GFCIs and AFCIs are life safety items. Where can I find a copy of this code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 ICC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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