ctgo4it Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Hi, brand new HI here. I just came upon 3 electrical panels in a 3 family home. The ground and neutral are seperated in each panel (they each service a different unit, so I don't think they are considered sub-panels). The 3 main breakers are outside by the meters. Is that panel considered a sub-panel, or should the ground and neutral be connected? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Any panel downstream from the main disconnect should have the grounds & neutrals separate. If the main disconnect is outside, I'd call these subpanels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Originally posted by ctgo4it Hi, brand new HI here. I just came upon 3 electrical panels in a 3 family home. The ground and neutral are seperated in each panel (they each service a different unit, so I don't think they are considered sub-panels). The 3 main breakers are outside by the meters. Is that panel considered a sub-panel, or should the ground and neutral be connected? Thank you From your description, it sounds fine. I'm envisioning three meters with three disconnects outside. Each disconnect feeds a distribution panel in each of the three units. The grounds & neutrals are connected at the main disconnects but separated at the distribution panels. Yes? If so, that's fine. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctgo4it Posted May 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Originally posted by Jim Katen Quote: Originally posted by ctgo4it Hi, brand new HI here. I just came upon 3 electrical panels in a 3 family home. The ground and neutral are seperated in each panel (they each service a different unit, so I don't think they are considered sub-panels). The 3 main breakers are outside by the meters. Is that panel considered a sub-panel, or should the ground and neutral be connected? Thank you From your description, it sounds fine. I'm envisioning three meters with three disconnects outside. Each disconnect feeds a distribution panel in each of the three units. The grounds & neutrals are connected at the main disconnects but separated at the distribution panels. Yes? If so, that's fine. - Jim Katen, Oregon Jim, I don't know what's going on at the main. It's part of the meter panel, so I didn't open it. I thought the ground and neutral have to be seperate until it goes to the service. I would think the main here is just a 'switch' for the hot lines, and the neutral/ground runs right out. I tried uploading pictures of it, but it won't load it. Thanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Open the pictures in PhotoDraw or something like that, resize them to something less than 100 Mb and rename them without any special sympbols or spaces in the name. In other words Johnson House.JPG; House(Johnson).JPG or JohnsonHouse#1 won't work. You need something like johnsonhouse.jpg . They should upload after that. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Geez, this always goes confusing. Cramer has said over and over that everything downstream of the main disconnect should have grounds & neutrals separated, and Cramer is always right, damn him. If the main disconnect is outside on the meter socket, that means the panels inside are "subpanels", no? If so, how would that make this install fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Originally posted by ctgo4it Jim, I don't know what's going on at the main. It's part of the meter panel, so I didn't open it If it's a typical meter main, there'll be two sections - one for the meter and one for the main breaker. Each should have its own separate cover. The meter side will have a seal on it from the power company. The main breaker side will have no seal. You ought to be able to open that one and look inside. I thought the ground and neutral have to be seperate until it goes to the service. The general rule is that grounding wires can't be connected to the neutral wires *after* the service disconnect. They are connected to one another *before* the service disconnect. Ref NEC 250.24(A)(5). I would think the main here is just a 'switch' for the hot lines, and the neutral/ground runs right out. It's the service disconnecting means. Before it, the grounding wires and the neutral wires are connected. After it, they're separate. Yes, the neutral and grounding wires run in & out. They should never be interrupted or switched. I suggest you buy three books. Wiring Simplified by Richter & Schwan Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings, by Douglas Hansen The National Electrical Code by NFPA Read them in that order. -Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Originally posted by kurt Geez, this always goes confusing. Cramer has said over and over that everything downstream of the main disconnect should have grounds & neutrals separated, and Cramer is always right, damn him. Yes. That's correct. If the main disconnect is outside on the meter socket, that means the panels inside are "subpanels", no? In our parlance, yes. Bear in mind, though, that the NEC never uses the term "subpanel." If so, how would that make this install fine? Because, in the original post, he said that the grounds & neutrals are separated in the indoor panels. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 OK. So I do get it. I just had inaccurate/incorrect terminology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicago Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Not to be a buttinski however no one mentioned that the bond screw should be checked.As in not screwed down at the subp......opps remote distribution panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Originally posted by chicago Not to be a buttinski however no one mentioned that the bond screw should be checked.As in not screwed down at the subp......opps remote distribution panel. Actually the sub panel enclosure should be bonded. It just has to be done at the equipment ground bar rather than at the floating neutral. Brian G. I See Your Buttinski, And I Raise You a Buttinski [:-mischie[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_ran Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Don't forget - The ground and neutral must also be isolated in the auxillary (sub) panels. If the neutral bus bar is connected directly to the box with no insulator isolating it from the grounded box, they are separared only by means of connecting them to a separate bar, but are still bonded togehter through the conductive frame of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here's 2000. A very typical and correct townhouse/condo set-up. Download Attachment: condoservice.JPG 93.51 KB Download Attachment: condopanel2.JPG 135.3 KB I don't really care if the NEC uses the term "sub-panel" or not. Electricians do. However, I do think it should be reserved for a panel fed from a breaker other than the service disconnect. My terminology... Service Disconnect: Wherever it is. Service Panel: The distribution panel, only if it contains the service disconnect (my clients don't understand "service equipment"). Distribution Panel, Main Panel or just Panel: The first distribution panel if there's a remote disconnect. May have a "Main" breaker or not. Sub Panel: Subsequent panel fed from a breaker within a distribution or service panel (or anything after that). I try to stick to that. Edited because I grabbed a photo of a screwed up condo panel first. Download Attachment: 0032.JPG 60.07 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Richard, in "condopanel" it looks like the 4th wire from the feed (the "wrapped" equipment ground) is terminated on the neutral bar, not on the equipment ground bar. Am I seeing that right? Brian G. Say It Ain't So [:-bigeyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Yep...see my edit above. The last (0032) photo was in the report. Good eye sir! I somehow managed to add the wording without noticing I had grabbed a bad one. I caught it when I checked the post image (probably at the same time as you). For others...the new condopanel2 photo isn't what Brian was talking about. It was a larger photo of the 0032 panel. Now I've confused everyone! [:-banghea That was a new home. Signed off. No reliable path back to the utility grounded conductor to clear a ground fault. "Do I need an inspection on a new home?" Yes, Ma'am! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctgo4it Posted May 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Here are the pictures (finally!) The meters and the mains are all in one enclosure, so I couldn't see what's going on in there. But as I 've been reading, I guess everything past the main disconnect should be seperate. Thanks all for your help Download Attachment: earlst1.jpg 29.82 KB Download Attachment: earlst2.jpg 25.95 KB Download Attachment: earlst3.jpg 44.89 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Originally posted by ctgo4it Here are the pictures (finally!) The meters and the mains are all in one enclosure, so I couldn't see what's going on in there. But as I 've been reading, I guess everything past the main disconnect should be seperate. Thanks all for your help In the first picture, I think I see bare grounding wires landing on the neutral terminal bar. If so, that's wrong. In the third picture, I'd have removed the cover on the right side. That's where you'd probably find the connection between the grounding and grounded wires. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Richard, What photo program are you using? Darren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Darren, I use a pair of obsolete Microsoft programs. MS Photo Editor for my default viewer, lightening, cropping and resizing. And...MS Image Composer for adding text, circles, etc. I got used to them, and still find them the easiest to use. Photo-editor came with office XP and 2000 but gets removed if you install office 2003. Image Composer is even older and came with FrontPage 97 (I think). When I change or upgrade computers I have to jump through some hoops to get them re-loaded and working. Because of that I wouldn't suggest them for everyone but I'm fairly sure that you can find free downloads of both programs from other sites if you are a diligent Googler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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