Brian G Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Originally posted by Jim Katen My impression is that they now have instructors who are mostly teaching from a text that they don't truly understand and that they push the students to buy ITA forms and tools. I've heard the part about pushing the forms, software, etc., but as far as I know Mark still teaches at Tampa. I can't say how many of the other original top guns are still teaching for them (Casey, Karden, Gladstone, etc.), though I have heard Douglas Hansen is no longer involved. Brian G. Mark-ed Man [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 I think you'd need to survey recent students to determine how hard the forms and reports are being pushed. As I understand it, when current inventories are depleted ITA will no longer sell tools and equipment. Cramer is still teaching. There are some other notable and trusted names teaching as well. Is there a Cramer for every school? I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 I took a quick look at ITA's current instructor list....it's loooooong. I didn't know most of those fellas, but aside from Mark I saw Gladstone, Scott Warga, Bill Richardson, and our own Chad F. A few more names were familiar from IW classes, like Peter Drenan and Michael Hart. Diamonds are still available, you just have to sort through all those damned rocks to find them. Brian G. Suitable Miners Needed [:-graduat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepefrio Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 After being in the Navy for 21 years, I can certainly say I have attended many so called useless training sessions. However, they are only useless if you don't use anything from it. Sounds simple but it's true. These HI courses IMHO are an excellent starting point. I think they are overpriced, but as long as people continue to pay that amount, they will continue as such. But the HI course is the first place a prospective HI can get a boat load of general information concerning the trade. It's 8 straight days of HI talk with HI instructors and other prospective HI's. You can get a lot of thoughts cleared up and decisions made. If used properly, it can be a great foundation to a good career. You say, instead of the course, go to the store and buy books and read them. OK, which books? Which books are not filled with open ignorance and suburban myths. How does one know they got the book that was written to help a new HI or the one that was written just to make the author money? As you see, we are returning back to the $64 question that has reared it's head many times. How should new HI's be trained? As far as I've seen, so far we only have about $20 worth of answer's so far. Every method I have heard of so far has pitfalls and drawbacks. So far there is no "proper" pipeline. Each person is mostly left to do it on their own using an assortment of whatever methods are affordable, available and practical to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Originally posted by sepefrio . . . You say, instead of the course, go to the store and buy books and read them. OK, which books? Which books are not filled with open ignorance and suburban myths. . . . Start with the IRC and the NEC. Then move on to the NRCA Roofing & Waterproofing Manual. Then buy Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings by Douglas Hansen, Redwood Kardon & Mike Casey. Then get The User Friendly Home, by Larry Reavis. Then get Water in Buildings, an Architect's Guide to Moisture and Mold by William B. Rose. If you can find it, get Problems in Roofing Design by Harrison McCampbell. It's presently out of print. If you learn visually, don't fail to get A Graphic Guide to Frame Construction and A Graphic Guide to Interior Details both by Rob Thallon. Building Construction Illustrated by Francis Ching. Don't even think about writing your first home inspection report till you've read and thoroughly understood The Elements of Style by Strunk & White and The Curious Case of the Misplaced Modifier by Bonnie Trenga. And, of course, no home inspector's library is complete without at least one, and preferably several, editions of Architectural Graphic Standards by the AIA. Every one of these books is nearly error free and myth free. If you read them all and understand what they're saying, you won't need any stinking two-week home inspection course. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommy453 Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 You guys are offering me some stellar advice. So I guess these 8 day intensive training schools are a good basic knowledge provider and nothing more. I have learned more by reading these forums these past few days then the previous weeks. Does the training school at least give you the knowledge to pass the exam? Thanks a lot all you guys for helping me make an informed decision. Is there one training program that definitely reigns supreme over the others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Yes, the course will get you ready for the test but that's not saying much. Don't feel that you've accomplished anything significant after that. Read the books Katen recommended (do everything he recommends wrt HI). Also ENJOY reading articles in rags like Fine Homebuilding. If you're young enough, consider doing handyman work instead of HI work. When will there be a real HI exam; one that makes a good list of books required reading in order to pass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepefrio Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 There goes (depending on how many editions Architectural Graphic Standards you get) $1000 NRCA Roofing & Waterproofing Manual - $350.00 http://www.nrca.net/rp/pubstore/details.aspx?id=243 Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings - $49.95 http://store.homeinspection.com/mm5/mer ... e=examprep The User Friendly Home - $29 http://www.homexam.com/bulk.html Water in Buildings, an Architect's Guide to Moisture and Mold - $81 http://www.amazon.com/Water-Buildings-A ... 0471468509 Problems in Roofing Design - $54.95 http://www.thattechnicalbookstore.com/b075069162X.htm A Graphic Guide to Frame Construction - $34.95 http://store.taunton.com/onlinestore/item/070470.html A Graphic Guide to Interior Details - $24.95 http://store.taunton.com/onlinestore/item/070453.html Building Construction Illustrated - $29.70 http://www.amazon.com/Building-Construc ... 0471358983 The Elements of Style by Strunk & White - ?? FREE ?? http://www.bartleby.com/141/ The Curious Case of the Misplaced Modifier - $11.55 http://www.amazon.com/Curious-Case-Misp ... 158297389X Architectural Graphic Standards - $150 http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitl ... 41091.html more editions here - http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Section/i ... Architects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Originally posted by sepefrio There goes (depending on how many editions Architectural Graphic Standards you get) $1000 True. But consider that your $1,000 will buy you a library that you will use and refer to for the remainder of your professional life. After that, you can sell the books and make back much of your original investment. Also, if you don't already know about it, visit www.abebooks.com - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Jim, How many books do you have that you would consider worthless? Ya know, the book you would throw in the trash and never think about it again? Don't really need an answer, just wanted to ask the question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Originally posted by Les Jim, How many books do you have that you would consider worthless? Ya know, the book you would throw in the trash and never think about it again? Don't really need an answer, just wanted to ask the question! I don't have any. I threw them in the trash and haven't thought about them since. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 I have a past client that works for a book distributor. She gets about 40 home inspection related books per year presented to her for distribution. She saves them for me, so I can enjoy them! I have been mildly disturbed by the exact same material in many; ie: same words! I save them and have used quite a few of them during depositions when the defendant says that is his "authority". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommy453 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thanks Jim for that great book list and thanks John for the price quotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSwamp Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Originally posted by Brian G Originally posted by Jim Katen My impression is that they now have instructors who are mostly teaching from a text that they don't truly understand and that they push the students to buy ITA forms and tools. I've heard the part about pushing the forms, software, etc., but as far as I know Mark still teaches at Tampa. I can't say how many of the other original top guns are still teaching for them (Casey, Karden, Gladstone, etc.), though I have heard Douglas Hansen is no longer involved. Brian G. Mark-ed Man [] My two cents: When Hansen walked, that told me everything I needed to know. Best I know, with precious few exceptions, the once-stellar teachers are gone, and are in the sales end of the biz now. My anecdotal knowledge indicates that HI schools are down to stems and seeds. But don't go by me. I went through college without buying any books. I went to the library, read 'em, took my tests and everything was copacetic. When I was at OHJ, I read most of their library. Same result -- learned what I needed to learn, and employed the knowledge as needed. Maybe it's just me, but I find the library to be much more interesting and exciting than somebody droning on in a classroom, all the while trying to sell reporting "systems" and bogus "certifications." WJid="blue"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Since Brian outed me: My two cents: When Hansen walked, that told me everything I needed to know. Best I know, with precious few exceptions, the once-stellar teachers are gone, and are in the sales end of the biz now. My anecdotal knowledge indicates that HI schools are down to stems and seeds. I like Douglas and respect his ethics and his knowledge. He briefly explained why he left ITA to me in an email. His reasons were valid but didn't include poor quality education. We're still using the electrical series PowerPoint that he wrote. If I employed your logic, Walter, then I wouldn't be coming to TIJ. Douglas left here too. Maybe it's just me, but I find the library to be much more interesting and exciting than somebody droning on in a classroom, all the while trying to sell reporting "systems" and bogus "certifications." Reading is the best way to learn in my book as well. You can choose pertinent information at a pace that suits your particular ability to digest and compartmentalize all the new stuff being crammed into your brain. Sadly, here in NY, we have a requirement that a home inspector must fulfill and that includes having his or her ass in a chair while watching and listening to someone like me or, hopefully, someone smarter than me drone on and on. Are the students ready to inspect after a 100 hours of training? No, but NY says they are. All through the course I make sure that the students know that the course is intended as a foundation for them to build on and that the content is, as is dictated by time, rudimentary. Is it everything it could be? Nope, there's room for improvement. One thing I will say however is that Kaplan has allowed me to fix any problems I've found and almost always has welcomed and then implemented any suggestion I had for improving the material. It's better today than when I started; it'll be better a year from now than it is today. I get paid a commission for selling product. One of the first things I do is tell students I get a commission for selling product. I'm clear and upfront. In two years I think I've gotten two commission checks one for 6 bucks the other for 7 bucks. Not every instructor pimps forms or home inspector kits and the very system of pimping product, to my knowledge, was there from when the founders ran the school and as I stated earlier, Kaplan has discontinued the practice. Finally, the one thing I make sure I do is give every student this website's (TIJ) info. A few post here, but a lot more watch here and are a little nervous about posting. Inspector education in its current form isn't a panacea. It needs improvement. It needs to be more complete and comprehensive. It needs qualified, conscientious instructors. It needs to be free of conjecture and folklore. Inspector education includes forums like these... which should also be free of conjecture and folklore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 The library. The internet. Online forums. Constant, ceaseless questioning of anyone & everyone that's working on actual real life construction projects. Pursuing & completing one's own construction projects. Dismantling stuff you don't understand, then reassembling it. Study writing. Study it. Listen to folks that are successful writers, and do what they say. The Kaplan thing will eventually settle into it's own miasma; things seek their own level, and find it. We'll read about it on the backs of matchbook covers someday. I don't judge anything by who's involved with a particular entity (or not), or where someone picks up their paychecks; everyone's gotta be somewhere, and they gotta eat. Some folks have the luxury of walking away if the porridge is distasteful; I wish I had that luxury on some occasions. There'll always be suckers & folks to service them. If I think about it too much, my hair hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Cycle of life. Cramer, Hansen and several others were/are great, but the future depends on new blood. People have to be given a chance. Kurt's right - some people have the luxury of walking away (guilty). I applaud Chad for his contribution to teaching. I'm sure he provides a very high quality experience. Out of curiosity, why don't more of today's experts get involved in teaching? Might that be why folklore persists? If there are no experts in the classroom telling students the truth and opening their eyes to the foolishness preached by incompetent slobs, whose fault is that? And those who are getting too old to deal with a class, why don't they write books to help those who are in the classrooms? Don't tell me that there's no money in books, because someone really interested in contributing cannot be so self-serving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSwamp Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Originally posted by ozofprev Cycle of life. Cramer, Hansen and several others were/are great, but the future depends on new blood. People have to be given a chance. True enough.id="blue"> Kurt's right - some people have the luxury of walking away (guilty). Lucky for me, I have the luxury. I'll keep my license current (probably), but I won't inspect houses that are for sale anymore. The whole process leaves me feeling kinda dirty and, well, used. I'm not cut out to have overseers.id="blue"> I applaud Chad for his contribution to teaching. I'm sure he provides a very high quality experience. From what I've seen here, I'll second that.id="blue"> Out of curiosity, why don't more of today's experts get involved in teaching? I'll pretend to be an expert for a few seconds. I wouldn't want to teach newbie HIs. I've talked to experienced guys who teach newbie HIs. It sounds like an earthly preview of hell.id="blue"> Might that be why folklore persists? No, I think the folklore is born of ignorance, arrogance and lack of education/native intelligence. Most of the folklore is so obviously wrong that only a buckethead would believe it.id="blue"> If there are no experts in the classroom telling students the truth and opening their eyes to the foolishness preached by incompetent slobs, whose fault is that? I say the students need to get a good general education before they show up at HI school. As far as, "whose fault is that," I guess the bean counters at the HI schools aren't willing to pay for real experts, because they're making enough money without paying extra for excellence.id="blue"> And those who are getting too old to deal with a class, why don't they write books to help those who are in the classrooms? Don't tell me that there's no money in books, because someone really interested in contributing cannot be so self-serving. I don't think there's significant money in writing HI books. If there were money in it, I'd do it. It would be a very tedious job, and there's likely no publisher who'd pay anybody to take on such tedium. If there were a market begging for comprehensive, peer-reviewed, professionally-edited HI books, somebody would be writing those books. As it is, most of the useful HI knowledge is in books such as the ones noted by brother Katen. I don't think HI schools use those books. I think they peddle their own books. Chad can correct me if I'm wrong. From my own crotchety point of view, the HI biz as I practiced it is now controlled by lobbyists and government drones. It's all government work now. The human interaction has to conform to a state-mandated SOP written by dull, uninformed and uninterested government types, with the sole purpose of pleasing the RE lobby. My overview of the biz is summed up perfectly by Tom Petty's lyrics for "The Last DJ." Excerpt: Well you can't turn him into a company man You can't turn him into a whore And the boys upstairs just don't understand anymore Well the top brass don't like him talking so much And he won't play what they say to play And he don't want to change what don't need to change And there goes the last DJ Who plays what he wants to play And says what he wants to say Hey, hey, hey And there goes your freedom of choice There goes the last human voice There goes the last DJ Full text at: http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/tom_p ... st_dj.html WJ id="blue"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieb Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 "From my own crotchety point of view, the HI biz as I practiced it is now controlled by lobbyists and government drones. It's all government work now. The human interaction has to conform to a state-mandated SOP written by dull, uninformed and uninterested government types, with the sole purpose of pleasing the RE lobby. My overview of the biz is summed up perfectly by Tom Petty's lyrics for "The Last DJ." Excerpt: Well you can't turn him into a company man You can't turn him into a whore And the boys upstairs just don't understand anymore Well the top brass don't like him talking so much And he won't play what they say to play And he don't want to change what don't need to change And there goes the last DJ Who plays what he wants to play And says what he wants to say Hey, hey, hey And there goes your freedom of choice There goes the last human voice There goes the last DJ" Interesting view, Walter. Your view seems to be a bit jaded. I guess life tends to do that to some. I and I believe others see things a bit differently. There is a long time inspector in my area that has also put on a pair of gray colored glasses. Heââ¬â¢s the only guy I use for counsel locally. Scot is now on your turf. The agents, builders and AHJ have all taken their toll on him. He just seems tired of the fight. Mike O and others, even you I believe, see the need for a true educational program for the industry. I would venture too say there are two types entering our profession. The tradesmen who never really hade the equipment or desire to educate himself and the intelligent men who, for whatever reason, decided it would be a wise biz to start up. Both are in need of education. ââ¬ÅFrom my own crotchety point of view, the HI biz as I practiced it is now controlled by lobbyists and government drones. It's all government work now.â⬠Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSwamp Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Originally posted by charlieb Interesting view, Walter. Your view seems to be a bit jaded. I guess life tends to do that to some. I freely admit to being jaded. I started the HI gig in 1985. It was fun for about 20 years. After 5,000 or so attics and crawls, and licensing on the horizon, I couldn't think of a good reason to go into attic number 5,001. And, HI work ain't my best skill. So when I got the opportunity to limit my housey work to consulting and EW work, and I had time to work on things I'm better at, I made a lateral move. The jaded-ness, I think, comes from the fact that most of the EW work makes me concentrate on just how how much some HIs can screw up what's a pretty simple job. So far, the worst loss to a family who didn't do anything wrong, except hire the wrong HI: About $300,000. Now, with mandatory E&O, every HI risks significant loss on every job -- about 8X the cost of the inspection. WJid="blue"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenT Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I attended ITA/Kaplan. The class was great. The instructors were great, although some were better than others. Some taught me what I didn't want to be like. But, I'm still glad I got to meet them. Just like any trade school, I didn't expect it to do anything except teach me the basics. I feel it did that quite well. Actually, I was impressed just how much was taught. Don Norman was running the program. I believe that he is an ASHI past president. One day, I had to take a day off to go to court. Don insisted that I make up the class. He tutored me privately and taught me the material. No shortcuts, all the material from an 8 hour class... he wouldn't take a dime for his trouble. A guy named Mike Nelson was the head instructor, he was extremely dedicated to doing a good job. Steve Gladstone was also one of the instructors. He was very interesting. I also got I chance to meet Chad. I'm not trying to "stroke" him, but honestly, from all of the inspectors I meet, I wanted to be an inspector like him the most. By the way, he turned me on to TIJ, so blame him!!! Sure, I wish I could spend a year or two with Chad or some of the other guys I've met here... but I can't. I have to get my information however I can. I learned alot at ITA, I'm glad I went, I would do it all over again. Although the ITA report system was taught, there was no hard sell. I knew from day one I didn't like it. I don't use it. Whatever I thought I knew about construction, I realized that there was so much more to learn about inspecting. I realized that my prior knowledge was just another seed in the mixture. In the past 6 months, I have already logged more than 60 CE's... in reality, that is much more than 60 hours of study. I am already contemplating my next class. When I finished the class, there was no doubt in my mind that I would be able to do inspections. Yes, there was and still is a learning curve. I honestly believe that I do justice by my clients. I do have to take my time to think about things, and I do work harder to produce a product that is acceptable to me, especially when it comes to report writing. Besides having to invent the way I wish to say something, I also have had to learn the software. By the time my report is finished, I feel that my client has a pretty good idea about the building. In my opinion, my reports are understandable... even by those not construction savy. Sometimes I wonder if I give too much information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieb Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 And, HI work ain't my best skill. So when I got the opportunity to limit my housey work to consulting and EW work, and I had time to work on things I'm better at, I made a lateral move. Who wouldnââ¬â¢t. Assuming they were equipped. Add commercial inspections and that is my 10th yr goal. I must say sending Scott out of town on a rail (tongue in cheek) has helped with that goal.id="blue"> The jaded-ness, I think, comes from the fact that most of the EW work makes me concentrate on just how how much some HIs can screw up what's a pretty simple job. So far, the worst loss to a family who didn't do anything wrong, except hire the wrong HI: About $300,000. Come on down and look at the manure some of the builders turn out. Add to that no state wide code and a minimal exam and anyone can become a ââ¬Åhome erection project managerâ⬠Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I wanted to be an inspector like him the most. That's a very nice compliment. Being disorganized and disheveled isn't all its cracked up to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emalernee Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Thoughts on General Home Inspection Training and the schools. Does anyone fail the classes that are offered? Ezra Malernee Canton, Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Originally posted by emalernee Thoughts on General Home Inspection Training and the schools. Does anyone fail the classes that are offered? Can't imagine how. Most aren't even implemented in terms of grades, so failure is not an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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