charlieb Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I inspected a 10 year old house last week. It has a Siemens distribution panel. All of the breakers are challenger. The panel is clearly marked use Siemens breakers only. The electrician has told the home owner Siemens owns/manufactures challenger. Therefore they are ok. Does/did Siemens manufacturer these breakers I did not find the challenger breaker "type" listed on the label. I realize this doesn't change my response to the issue but IF they are manufactured by Siemens, do they use the same "type" designations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Last I knew Siemens did not own Challenger, but that's been some years now. These companies do get bought out this way and that often enough to get confusing sometimes. However, even if Siemens does own Challenger that doesn't automatically mean interchanging the breakers is kosher. If the Challenger breakers haven't been tested and listed by UL to go in the Siemens panel, technically it isn't allowed anymore than any brand that Siemens doesn't own. All that said, I've yet to see or hear of a single, actual problem from putting Brand A breakers in a Brand B panel. Physically, the Siemens and Challenger breakers are virtually identical. Brian G. Love That Sparky Logic [:-boggled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieb Posted February 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 My experience has been the same Brian. BUT It was a prelisting inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieb Posted February 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 By the way, thanks Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottpat Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 For what it is worth....... Charlie, I believe that Siemens bought out Challenger back in the late 1990's early 2000. The large Challenger plant down on Hwy 49 in Richland changed names to Siemens about then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I wrote this in 2005: Iââ¬â¢d advise treading carefully when condemning off-brand breakers. Sometimes, itââ¬â¢s not a violation. If a breaker manufacturer pays for it, Underwriters Laboratories will test and ââ¬Åclassifyâ⬠Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Westinghouse Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Originally posted by Scottpat For what it is worth....... Charlie, I believe that Siemens bought out Challenger back in the late 1990's early 2000. The large Challenger plant down on Hwy 49 in Richland changed names to Siemens about then. Westinghouse purchased Challenger in 1987. Eaton purchased the industrial control & circuit breaker/load center line from Westinghouse in 1992. Nothing has changed since as I have a catalog called "CHALLENGER SELECTOR" with the EATON logo on back. It would appear that the Westinghouse "BR" series 1 inch breakers, originally sold as "BRYANT" by Westinghouse and the Challenger breakers are nearly identical. Eaton owns Cutler-Hammer, so that they now have the CH slim breakers similar to Square D "QO" and the "BR" breakers similar to Square D "HOMELINE". It seems that everybody seems to be making a 1 inch breaker these days. The Challenger, Cutler Hammer, and former Westinghouse type breakers are available through all Cutler Hammer distributors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sodapop Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Originally posted by charlieb I inspected a 10 year old house last week. It has a Siemens distribution panel. All of the breakers are challenger. The panel is clearly marked use Siemens breakers only. The electrician has told the home owner Siemens owns/manufactures challenger. Therefore they are ok. Does/did Siemens manufacturer these breakers I did not find the challenger breaker "type" listed on the label. I realize this doesn't change my response to the issue but IF they are manufactured by Siemens, do they use the same "type" designations? If the panel states "Siemens breakers only" then I would change them out. Even if Siemens now makes them did they make them when that particular panel was made? If the Challenger breaker does not have Siemens on the label, then IMHO, the Challenger breaker is not LISTED for that panel and they should be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Originally posted by Sodapop If the panel states "Siemens breakers only" then I would change them out. Even if Siemens now makes them did they make them when that particular panel was made? If the Challenger breaker does not have Siemens on the label, then IMHO, the Challenger breaker is not LISTED for that panel and they should be replaced. It's not that simple. Even if the panel label doesn't include a particular breaker, that breaker can still be used in that panel if the breaker is listed for use with that panel. (Oy! What a sentence!) That's what classified breakers are all about. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sodapop Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Originally posted by Jim Katen Originally posted by Sodapop If the panel states "Siemens breakers only" then I would change them out. Even if Siemens now makes them did they make them when that particular panel was made? If the Challenger breaker does not have Siemens on the label, then IMHO, the Challenger breaker is not LISTED for that panel and they should be replaced. It's not that simple. Even if the panel label doesn't include a particular breaker, that breaker can still be used in that panel if the breaker is listed for use with that panel. (Oy! What a sentence!) That's what classified breakers are all about. - Jim Katen, Oregon I agree. In my experience, I have seen and have tried to use breakers that were listed for a particular panel. When trying to install them I could never get a solid connection to the busbar. When using the original breaker I had no problem. In order to use the classified breaker, it would have to fit properly, this is not always the case. Use the original if at all possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 OK, I have a question. In the attached photo, what would you say about the panel/breakers? Image Insert: 530.23 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDSchlueter Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 What is the brand of the loadcenter? I see a mix of Bryant, Siemens, Murray, GE. I don't think any panel is listed to accept all those different brands. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Originally posted by JDSchlueter What is the brand of the loadcenter? I see a mix of Bryant, Siemens, Murray, GE. I don't think any panel is listed to accept all those different brands. Just my opinion. Depends on the labeling. I've seen panels labeled to accept certain types of other brand name breakers - as many as half a dozen other brands. Without Darren providing a photo of that label, I can't comment on the mix of breakers. It's set up as a sub and it looks like that top-left breaker is either powering that other sub or this is the sub and the other panel is the main and that top-left is only powering an oven or some other device somewhere in the home. Where's the main disconnect, Darren? Lot's of individual circuits in there, plus another sub-panel, what was the max number of individual stabs allowed by the labeling Darrel? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Just blew it up, Is there a 10ga wire from that 30amp breaker at the right bank (the one with the dirty label) double-lugged to that 15-amp breaker directly above it? It also looks like there are some MWBC there that don't have any handle ties. What did you write? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 The main panel (and disconnect) is in the garage. This is 1 of 2 sub panels. There is double tapping on 1 breaker and several neutrals. Open knock-out in bottom of this panel. As yo ucan see from this photo, some of the 'different' breakers are not used. Image Insert: 490.06 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Oops, wrong picture.... Image Insert: 522.29 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Kubs Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Originally posted by Darren Oops, wrong picture.... Image Insert: 522.29 KB I'd say the Multi-Wire Branch Circuit feeding off the split breaker is far more dangerous then the different brands of breakers and plenty of reason to call in an electrician as well as citing unprofessional modifications. Or is one side pulling from the 15 amp and the other from the adjacent 20 amp? Looks like a newer panel, the Bryant breakers of all things couldn't possibly be listed for use in that panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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