Bill Kibbel Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 For the asbestos content of rock and mineral wools, see the following sources: Cox, D. L. "Heat Insulation." Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. Transactions 44 (1937): 476. "New J-M rock wool plant will help meet Canadian demand for insulation materials." Engineering and Contract Record 61, no. 7 (1948): 7476. Winer, A. "Mineral wool insulation from asbestos tailings." Canadian Mining & Metallurgical Bulletin 67 (1974): 97-104. Dr. Maines, I can't find it now, but I'm quite sure I've read at least one or more of the sources you've listed. I have extensively researched what building products might contain asbestos, including mineral wool. What I've found were only very old theories suggesting waste from asbestos processing could possibly be used to manufacture mineral wool. It would involve first melting the asbestos with carbon in an extremely high temperature furnace. I have never found anything that suggests it was ever attempted, much less made commercially available for the building industry. Making mineral wool from basalt, diabase and slag is significantly less costly than making it from asbestos. If you have any documentation indicating mineral wool used in any buildings ever contained asbestos, we would really appreciate you providing some excerpts from those documents. Ps. I'd be very interested in your research project History of building and fire safety codes in industrial democracies. Please let us know when it becomes published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Hi, The Seattle paper is fanatical about reporting on anyting containing asbestos - particularly if it's in building materials. Guess what? About 90% of every building that was insulated around here between 1955 and 1985 has rockwool insulation in it. If it were an asbestos hazard, you can bet they'd be crowing to the heavens around here. This place is so full of eco-weenies that just discussing a new road to relieve the traffic hassle around here sets them off. If rockwool contained asbestos, they'd be demanding that every house in the state be encapsulated, put on a rocket and sent off to the sun. There's no way that asbestos-containing rockwool could have ever escaped the attention of these folks. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Kubs Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I think this is another fine example of inspector lore, more then likely propagated by some genius teaching a night school/correspondence course for would be inspectors. As has been said Rock/Slag wool is the byproduct of iron refining. It really wouldn't make sense, or even a stable product, to try to mix a very different, highly heat resistant material in with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpm24 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Cox was in the U.S. Navy, so he may be talking only about mineral wool marine insulation. Here is what he said in 1937: p.476 "The rock wool type [of insulation] is composed of nodulated rock wool fibers, clay, and asbestos fibers. This type generally can be easily applied and will adhere to any clean, unheated or heated surface." The 1948 J-M article suggests, but does not state, that there was at least some asbestos in the manufacture of rock wool used in homes. There was a JM mineral wool plant in Asbestos, Quebec that used local stone as stock (on this point, see also Goudge, M. F. "Rock wool." 623-34. Montreal, Canada: Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, 1936). p.76 "The other type of rock wool manufactured at Toronto is the batt, used for insulating new homes while they are under construction. By the advanced manufacturing process used at Toronto, long, fine fibres of rock wool are felted into light, resilient batts, uniform in insulating efficiency." The 1974 Winer article abstract says that "A mineral wool of good quality was prepared from a 70:30 mixture of chrysotile asbestos tailings and a local sand from the Eastern Townships of Quebec. A nickeliferous by-product (5% nickel) was recovered, which could be credited to process costs. A preliminary market study and capital costing of the process indicate a viable operation, returning over 20 per cent on investment before taxes." Another source on this issue is Thornbury, William D. "Mineral wool industry of the United States." Economic Geography 14, no. 4 (1938): p.404 "Other forms in which mineral wool is produced are: rock wool cement (mixed with asbestos or clay); pads; panels; plaster; brick; felt; cork board; and, acoustic blankets, pads, and panels." Hausdok, as to your Seattlites, take a look at http://www.resasb.org/. Mineral, rock and slag wool producers have been put into bankruptcy by asbestos litigation. rpm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Hausdok, as to your Seattlites, take a look at http://www.resasb.org/. Mineral, rock and slag wool producers have been put into bankruptcy by asbestos litigation. rpm Uh, that's not what it says. It says that the Rock Wool Manufacturing Company - a company, one of many, that branded its product Rock Wool filed for bankruptcy. It pays out $5. per "victim" - $4. if they file electronically. Hmmm, that doesn't seem much of an "award" for exposure, does it? Rock Wool is just a brand name that folks have gotten used to calling mineral wool - sort of like the way they call NM cable "Romex." That a few companies experimented with mixing mineral wool and asbestos I have no doubt - to say or even to just imply that it is ubiquitous in any rockwool, or even that mineral wool containing asbestos is widespread throughout this country, or even the world, is, I think, specious. So, some references to comments in some obscure texts - where are the major studies that show that mineral wool contains asbestos and is a health hazard? Mineral wool is a biosoluble substance; asbestos is not. If mineral wool contained asbestos, wouldn't there be substantial medical evidence found in workers from the mineral wool industry of asbestosis or mesothelioma? Why hasn't that been the case? Mineral wool insulation is still produced for residential construction today and I still see it every once in a while in new homes. With all of the lawsuits rampant in this country; why would any builder in his/her right mind - or any industry for that matter - still sell a product containing asbestos? Where are the contemporary laboratory studies that show that mineral wool that's already in homes actually contains asbestos? Where is the hue and cry? Answer: There is none. Check this out, it's a page thrown up by NAIMA that lists the various non-NAIMA independent studies done around the world on the subject of hazards to humans associated with mineral wool and fiberglass insulation. One of these looked at the product back to 1946 - right about the time that some bulders began including insulation in homes: http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/sa ... earch.html ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpm24 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm not arguing that rock wool is dangerous. I'm pointing out that the literature suggests that historically, some rock and mineral wools contained asbestos. I'm an historian of technology, not a building inspector. You will find, however, that the historical producers (not the current ones) of rock and mineral wools are now in bankruptcy and are paying what small amounts they still possess to plaintiffs and their attorneys. If you're interested in my views, you can take a look at my Asbestos & Fire (Johns Hopkins University Press): id="left"> http://www.amazon.com/Asbestos-Fire-Tec ... 0813535751 I note that the website http://www.mesotheliomaweb.org/navyasbe ... lsatoc.htm (not, perhaps, the most objective of sources) is entirely convinced that historically, rock wool and mineral wool were ACMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm not arguing that rock wool is dangerous. I'm pointing out that the literature suggests that historically, some rock and mineral wools contained asbestos. I'm an historian of technology, not a building inspector. You will find, however, that the historical producers (not the current ones) of rock and mineral wools are now in bankruptcy and are paying what small amounts they still possess to plaintiffs and their attorneys. No argument with that; however, are they paying because their product made folks sick or are they paying because (and any home inspector can relate to this) it was cheaper to declare bankruptcy and settle than to spend the millions it might have taken to prove that their product didn't make anyone sick - which seems to be the model these days. Here's the way it seems to go; somebody believes that he or she has somehow been injured and convinces some attorney to go after a manufacturer. The attorney sees a chance to force a class action and make lots of money while the clients got relatively nothing. The class action is initiated and then the "defendant," without the money to defend against armies of supposedly-injured folks, declares bankruptcy so the principals won't end up spending the rest of their lives as indentured servants while the lawyers live high on the hog. I keep looking around for my lawsuit lottery ticket but so far haven't found the right one. I've got to give it time and be patient; I know that there are armies of lawyers way ahead of me on that - sooner or later I'm bound to get lucky and then I too can take someone to the cleaners get rich and ruin everything that someone has spent a lifetime building. It's the new American dream. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpm24 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I know what you mean--I just got back to town after testifying for the defense in an asbestos case. Before 2006, 90% of all asbestos claimants were unimpaired (i.e. not sick). That's what the first and last chapters of my asbestos book are about. More than 80 companies have been driven into bankruptcy, costing at least a hundred thousand jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 The first excerpt describes a material that combines rock wool fibers, clay and asbestos fibers. It is not the mineral wool insulation that was commercially available for building insulation. The second refers specificaly to man-made mineral fibers. There is no indication of asbestos fibers being introduced to mineral wool insulation. Mined asbestos has never been reported to have been used to create the fibers of mineral wool. The third, again is a theory for the possible use of waste asbestos. It is not a description of anything that ever occurred that made it available. It was only a "preliminary market study". The fourth describes a cement mix that contains rock wool and possibly, asbestos fibers. This is not a thermal insulation product. Kyle wrote: "As has been said Rock/Slag wool is the byproduct of iron refining." No one said that. Rock wool is not a byproduct of iron refining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I'm not arguing that rock wool is dangerous. I'm pointing out that the literature suggests that historically, some rock and mineral wools contained asbestos. I'm an historian of technology, not a building inspector. You will find, however, that the historical producers (not the current ones) of rock and mineral wools are now in bankruptcy and are paying what small amounts they still possess to plaintiffs and their attorneys. The only successful asbestos litigation (that I know of) against a mineral wool manufacturer (the one you cited) was for a later product the company produced - asbestos cement products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcreech Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Doing some research and came across this info...If you want the real truth on this issue, please visit NAIMA.org or the Department of Energy or the EPA website....rockwool is not and has never contained asbestos, nor has asbstos been used in the manufacturing of...rockwool is completely 100% inorganic no chemicals added..made from rock and steel...our particular product is manufactured in Nolanville, TX...we manufacture a loose fill spray in the walls and blow in the attic insulation. The rock is mined in south Texas and we get our recycled steel from a company in Texas. You can also go to a website called ICC ES Legacy. It is a third party reporting agency that is very trusted in the industry. Our website is www.amerrock.com we have a couple of videos that will explain how our product is manufactured and installed..the site also has some still shots of installed material and lots of other information...feel free to contact me..either by phone or thru this email..214.263.4195..thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n/a10 Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 Does anyone have anything new to add? I’ve been trying to find more information on this topic. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve found several “Mesothelioma Attorney†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 Does anyone have anything new to add? Iââ¬â¢ve been trying to find more information on this topic. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Iââ¬â¢ve found several ââ¬ÅMesothelioma Attorneyâ⬠Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryjoaquim Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 i just used to rock wool to plug up a big hole at the top of the furnace door where it connects to the base my home made maple syrup evaporating pan. after about an hour the rock wool began to burn and stink to high heaven, so my friend and i began trying to carefully remove it without burning ourselves in the intense heat. unfortunately numerous tufts of rock wool got away in the draft and flew into the boiling sap! we skimmed off all we could find in the steam, and now that the fire has died down i can see that there are lots of little strands of rock wool floating in the half finished syrup. my question is this: if i strain out all the little fibers in the cloth, am i risking anyone's health by serving them this maple syrup? i know i may have jeopardized the flavor of this batch, but is there any reason to worry that tiny amounts of rock wool might be toxic if ingested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryjoaquim Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 *meant to type "strain out all the little fibers with a cloth filter..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garet Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 coryjoaquim, We inspect buildings. You might try posting your question on a forum for industrial hygienists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 You might also want to figure out what the insulation you used was. Rock wool is made of rocks, it doesn't burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'd really hate to throw away that maple syrup but given what's happened, I'd waste no time in doing so. You gotta be kidding if you meant you'd keep it. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryjoaquim Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 as far as i know it was regular rockwool. it didnt burn per se, but blackened, smoldered and gave off a noxious fume right by the door (this firebox is seven feet long and hot hot hot!) which is why we tried to remove it. only a few smallish tufts (think the size of a dime) fell into a vat of over 30 gallons of boiling sap, which we tried to find and skim out. taste aside, if the fibers are filtered out will this be hazardous to consume? i realize the ridiculousness of this situation and that you fellas are not experts on this subject but it seemed the best place i could find on the internet to ask. i'm also inquiring in real life to real people who may have more expertise. thanks! cory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryjoaquim Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 *also as a side note, i was ready to throw the batch away but my friend who brought over the rock wool in the first place said "well, its only made of rocks so i dont think it is poisonous at all" which is why i thought i would find i third party to chime in before i dump the syrup... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Rock wool is a mineral from the earth that doesn't burn. Asbestos is also a mineral from the earth that doesn't burn. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtblum Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I don't know, man. I can appreciate the time and effort involved in making your syrup. I guess you have to ask yourself if it's worth the risk of someone finding even one missed fiber in their breakfast. The idea anyone would consider salvaging a food product tainted with fibrous particulates from an accident, is a pretty scary thought. To put just as much effort into determining whether it might be poisonous, is even scarier. Throw that shit away and start over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 If these guys saw what sort of stuff reguarly falls into boiling syrup, they'd never touch any of it. Cory, how many gallons of finished product is there? What grade is it? If you're considering tossing it, sell me a gallon first. I always sprinkle a little rockwool on it before eating it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rock wool is slag wool. It's made from shiny slag left over after one smelts iron. I agree with Jim; I don't think you have anything to be afraid of. Filter it out with a paint strainer or something and don't lose any more sleep over it. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rock wool is slag wool. It's made from shiny slag left over after one smelts iron. Rock wool and slag wool are 2 different products. Rock wool is made from molten natural rock. Slag wool is made from molten blast-furnace slag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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