TPRV, to test or not to test...

[jodil]

I read that it is recommended to home owners to test the TPRV on your water heater. Does anyone recommend this in a report? The material I was reading stated that 80% of TPRV's dont work and can get stuck open with debris.. It personally wouldnt want to test mine and run the risk of getting it stuck in an open position.. Just wanted to see what anyone else had to say about this. Also, how much is too much corrosion at the bottom of the discharge pipe?

thanks

[Richard Moore]

One of those areas that we often disagree on, Jodi.

Personally...

If the termination is clearly outside, and the water heater is not due for replacement, I do test them. Actually, I really don't feel that I'm testing the TPR valve itself as lifting the valve mechanically isn't really simulating pop-off conditions, but I do want to make sure the discharge line is open. I've had some drip afterwards, but I've always been able to stop them by re-lifting the lever and letting it snap back. Never had one stick wide open.

When the discharge is right at the heater, as many are around here in basements and garages, then no, I don't. First it would be messy and second a leak afterwards would cause me serious headaches.

Keep in mind that our water around here is mostly soft and we don't get the scale and sediment that might tend to clog the valve in other parts of the country, so don't consider this a recommendation.

I include the following as a comment in the report...

"The Temperature and Pressure Relief (TPR) valve is a very important safety feature in water heaters. Most manufacturers suggest that homeowners test these valves at least once a year by lifting the lever to ensure the valve discharges properly. A leaking or inoperative TPR valve should be investigated immediately by a qualified plumber."

...and then go on to say if I tested it. But, I don't make a big safety deal about it (as long as it's plumbed correctly) and I suspect it's unlikely than anyone ever does test the thing subsequently.

If you are seeing a lot of corrosion at the bottom of the discharge pipe, but it's not leaking now, I would suspect a bad previous TPR, not nescessarily the present one. As long as the pipe is still open, I would doubt it's a problem.

BTW...I hadn't heard of an 80% failure rate. What material are you reading?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by jodil

I read that it is recommended to home owners to test the TPRV on your water heater. Does anyone recommend this in a report? The material I was reading stated that 80% of TPRV's dont work and can get stuck open with debris.. It personally wouldnt want to test mine and run the risk of getting it stuck in an open position.. Just wanted to see what anyone else had to say about this. Also, how much is too much corrosion at the bottom of the discharge pipe?

thanks

They often drip after you test them.

I've never heard of one failing to open when it should.

I see no reason to test one in the context of a home inspection.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[aaronm]

Jim:

Except in Texas:

(k) Water heaters. The inspector shall:

(1) report the energy source;

(2) inspect the unit and report as in need of repair fittings that leak or are corroded;

(3) report as in need of repair temperature and pressure relief valve piping that lacks gravity drainage, is improperly sized (no smaller than the outlet fittings), has deficiencies in material, or lacks a correct termination;

(4) report as in need of repair a temperature and pressure relief valve that does not operate when the valve is of an operable type and operation will not cause damage to persons or property as reasonably determined by the inspector (for example, it would be reasonable not to operate the valve if there is improper or undetermined termination of the drain pipe, a corroded or damaged valve, improper installation of valve or drain pipe, the drain pipe is of inappropriate material or there is no water supply cut-off valve at the unit);

Aaron

[jodil]

Aaron where did you get the "inspector shall" language?

So, I guess some of you do and some of you dont. I'll have to ask my plumber friend about it then. Most TPR valves here have green corrosion such as the one I have attached. Is this normal? What causes this?

Image Insert:

55.94 KB

[hausdok]

Hi Jodi,

No, it's not normal. That discharge pipe is dripping. There are only two reasons that valve should be opening - excess pressure or exess temperature. Both reasons indicate that something is amiss. The design of that puff shield says that's a pretty old water heater. Have you got exceptionally hard water there with lots of limestone around? You might have a situation where a buildup of crud is preventing the control valve from sensing temperature properly and it's taking the water up to boiling temperature and causing the valve to open.

Did you check the water temperature at the tap?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[jodil]

We do have hard water here, whether we have limestone I dont know? I'll have to find out. Literally, 2 out of 3 water heaters I inspect look like this or worse. I did not check the water temp at the faucet, it wasnt hot enough to sting, so I didnt bother. So boviously this IS a problem. Should I start testing the valves? Should I call it out as needing a professional?

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi Jodi,

No, it's not normal. That discharge pipe is dripping. There are only two reasons that valve should be opening - excess pressure or exess temperature. Both reasons indicate that something is amiss. The design of that puff shield says that's a pretty old water heater. Have you got exceptionally hard water there with lots of limestone around? You might have a situation where a buildup of crud is preventing the control valve from sensing temperature properly and it's taking the water up to boiling temperature and causing the valve to open.

Did you check the water temperature at the tap?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[allspec33351]

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi Jodi,

No, it's not normal. That discharge pipe is dripping. There are only two reasons that valve should be opening - excess pressure or exess temperature. Both reasons indicate that something is amiss. The design of that puff shield says that's a pretty old water heater. Have you got exceptionally hard water there with lots of limestone around? You might have a situation where a buildup of crud is preventing the control valve from sensing temperature properly and it's taking the water up to boiling temperature and causing the valve to open.

Did you check the water temperature at the tap?

OT - OF!!!

M.

Bad tprv will leak. If it doesn't reset itself it will leak. If it is open it will leak a lot.

mlc

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by jodil

We do have hard water here, whether we have limestone I dont know? I'll have to find out. Literally, 2 out of 3 water heaters I inspect look like this or worse. I did not check the water temp at the faucet, it wasnt hot enough to sting, so I didnt bother. So boviously this IS a problem. Should I start testing the valves? Should I call it out as needing a professional?

Since you don't work in Texas and don't have to put up with the onerous rules inflicted by the pig-dog imperialist oppressors in TREC (as poor Aaron does), I'd recommend that you not test those suckers.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Richard Stanley]

Aaron got that language from Texas law. I have 'reasonably determined' that all of the valves may be damaged and do not test them.

[allspec33351]

Originally posted by Richard Stanley

I have 'reasonably determined' that all of the valves may be damaged and do not test them.

I have 'reasonably determined' that all components in a home may be damaged and do not test them.

My home inspection is now under 30 minutes.

mlc

[kurt]

There's no such thing as a "test" of the TPR valve, as others have said. All your doing is seeing if the thing drains water. If you think that's important, go for it. (It's not important.)

Folks that write "recommendations" about what home owners should and shouldn't do are often associate editors (dog troops) w/backgrounds in journalism or English Lit. They read other stuff by other associate editors and mistakenly imagine it to be true, and the cycle goes round and round.

TPR valves are about as foolproof as any device ever mfg. I never touch them. Ever. If you do, you're asking for it. The only time I'd even consider it would be if it went to a drain, and even then I probably wouldn't.

[allspec33351]

For some reason I can't use firefox if I want to upload a file. So I just give you the file locations.

http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-10L-100XL.pdf

http://www.watts.com/pdf/F-DE-865.pdf

We always talk about following manufactures instructions and I think it is very clear that they want these guys tested for good reasons.

I have tested thousands of tprv and could not reset maybe five and in each instance I notified the seller what happened and that they need to call a plumber. I can not recall an instance where I was threatened but a do remember a couple of thank yous.

I have found hundred or so the wound not open. Would they open when the temp or pressure called for it to do so, I do not know. I am willing to risk the wrath of a seller to save my client a life or two.

won ton soup and white bread

mlc

[hausdok]

Hi Mitchell,

When using Firefox to upload a file you need to wait until the upload box says that the file is uploaded and shows you the url in the upload box and then cut the url out and paste it into your post and submit.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by allspec33351

. . . I am willing to risk the wrath of a seller to save my client a life or two.

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR valve stuck shut or failed?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[allspec33351]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by allspec33351

. . . I am willing to risk the wrath of a seller to save my client a life or two.

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR valve stuck shut or failed?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

No

?

Have you heard of a fire started or cause by FPE panel ?

Have you heard of a fire started or cause by Zinsco panel ?

Have you heard of a person being electrocuted by a faulty GFCI ?

Have you heard of a fire started or cause by a double tap in a panel ?

Have you heard of a confirmed lead poisoning in a residential home ?

Have you heard of a confirmed asbestos medical condition in a residential home ?

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR drain line went up hill?

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR drain line was reduced?

Have you ever heard of a fire spread quicker because the insulation paper was on top?

Have you ever heard of a song in your head but couldn't remember the name of the song???

MLC

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by allspec33351

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by allspec33351

. . . I am willing to risk the wrath of a seller to save my client a life or two.

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR valve stuck shut or failed?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

No

?

Have you heard of a fire started or cause by FPE panel ?

Yes. I have personally witnessed one, had a customer experience one and have heard anecdotes of several others.

Have you heard of a fire started or cause by Zinsco panel ?

Yes. Several.

Have you heard of a person being electrocuted by a faulty GFCI ?

I have personally been shocked by a faulty GFCI.

Have you heard of a fire started or cause by a double tap in a panel ?

Yes. I now have the panel in my basement.

Have you heard of a confirmed lead poisoning in a residential home ?

Yes. A child. Past customer. He's in chelation therapy now.

Have you heard of a confirmed asbestos medical condition in a residential home ?

Never.

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR drain line went up hill?

Never.

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR drain line was reduced?

Never.

Have you ever heard of a fire spread quicker because the insulation paper was on top?

The basement of the house I grew up in. I put the fire out myself with a hand held fire extinguisher. (of course I also started the fire)

You stated that you test the TPR because it could save your client's life. This simply isn't true. It's a fallacy. There might be other, more valid arguments to test a TPR valve in the context of a home inspection but saving your client's life isn't one of them.

-Jim Katen, Oregon

[allspec33351]

Maybe I heard about one

http://www.dailyitem.com/homepage/local ... 74909.html

mlc

[Bob White]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by allspec33351

. . . I am willing to risk the wrath of a seller to save my client a life or two.

Have you ever heard of a water heater that exploded because the TPR valve stuck shut or failed?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

A quick read at waterheaterblast.com and a few other sites revealed that in one (http://www.heraldandnews.com/articles/2 ... bruner.txt) out of the first six links I visited, the blast was reportedly due to a faulty TPR valve. The other five exploding water heaters had the TPRs removed, capped, or otherwise altered.

[allspec33351]

I like this

http://www.onthehouse.com/wp/19940207

mlc

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by allspec33351

I like this

http://www.onthehouse.com/wp/19940207

mlc

Ok, I'm beginning to come around.

From the article:

According to a survey done by Domestic Engineering Magazine, approximately one of every three T & PR vales is frozen shut and non-operational.

Does anyone have access to this survey or know anything about it?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

[From the article:

According to a survey done by Domestic Engineering Magazine, approximately one of every three T & PR vales is frozen shut and non-operational.

Does anyone have access to this survey or know anything about it?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

I'll be glad to come around, but someone come up w/something better than a 3rd party claim to a vague survey.

I've been googling for 15 minutes and the only Domestic Engineering Magazine I've found is from 1953 w/an article about the first lady plumber. Interesting, but where's the magazine w/the "survey"?

And how good is a survey that says something like "approximately one in three"? Does that mean one or zero?

Facts. References. Something more than Watts doing what all mfg's. do, which is cover their butts w/recommendations like testing TPR valves.

As a start, I always thought test implied measurable action. Lifting a lever isn't a test. There is no measurement of force or temperature.

I'm always impressed when home inspectors save lives, though. I want to start saving lives too. Maybe I'll start lifting the lever.

"Every lever lifted is a life saved" is going to be my new operational model.

[ozofprev]

Denny Lopp, winner of the 2004 ABPA Meritorious Award Recipient is credited with authoring the survey.

I found this...

"In 1986, Denny gained national fame with his article on Temperature and Pressure Valves in “Domestic Engineeringâ€

[allspec33351]

Another interesting read.

http://www.nationalboard.org/NationalBo ... sic26.aspx

Sometime lifting a lever or pushing a button is the only test we have. I probably will never save a life because of my recommendations but I'm not going to stop.

How about if I don't lift the lever I will never know.

mlc

[Brandon Chew]

Domestic Engineer ... isn't that just a fancy name for housewife?

Great info in this thread guys. tx.