Business without ASHI

[kurt]

There are few things as humbling, or educational, as looking @ old reports. When I've gone over stuff from a few years back, I shudder.

It's the hardest part of the job. The inspectin' stuff is easy; writing the report is the killer. What's really amazing is when I run across some of the mass market checklists & matrix stuff; I literally don't know what they are talking about. Not a clue.

[Norm]

How about when you inspect a home which you inspected a few years ago and find things that were probably there the first time around but not mentioned? Been there done that and trust me it's not a warm cuddly feeling.

NORM SAGE

[hausdok]

Hi Kurt,

I agree with your point about the checklist/matrix reports. I can't understand how anyone, who needs to, can go back into their files several years later and be able to recall an inspection based on a bunch of icons or checkmarks and one or two word comments.

Being a former criminal investigator, I'm accustomed to describing what I observed and every one of my subsequent actions in great detail. I tend to trust in my written reports to revive a very clear picture of the investigation process. imagine the chaos that would ensue if police agencies suddenly let all of their line-duty cops and investigators rely on a checklist and icons for their reporting procedures.

Remember when I wrote last week about the very first inspection I ever did? Off the top of my head, I had a pretty good memory of that inspection, but when I pulled the written report and reviewed it, I found lots of details that I'd completely forgotten about. Once I read through the report, it was as if a video tape had been plugged into my head and I could remember every issue in great detail. If I'd been using a matrix or checklist type of report, there is no way any of those details would have returned to mind after 8 years. That's why I favor a narrative type of report.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[chrisprickett]

...Continued thread drift[]

I actually market against the matrix/checklist style. One of the bullet points in my brochure is that I provide easy to interpret narrative reports.

[swarga]

Allow me to return this thread to the ASHI discussion that started it.

ASHI is a nation wide organization but it's exposure is not the same nation wide. That is why they started branding.

The ASHI presence is not the same in Fort Worth TX. and Phoenix, AZ.

Here in the Phoenix metro area one of the first questions a Realtor will ask is, are an ASHI member. If you are not in ASHI they don't refer you.

ASHI is a great place to receive technical knowledge and has been for years. Only recently did ASHI put a big emphasis on marketing. Marketing has always taken a back seat to the training. (In my opinion that is how it should be)

Only someone who does not look at the whole picture would make general statements like "$750 is to much to belong to an organization for a web link."

If that was all there was to it that would be true, however, ASHI has allowed me to meet some of the best inspectors in the country and develop relationships with them. I am not afraid or embarrassed to call Doug, or Kurt and say "I haven't seen this before, do you know what is wrong?"

TIJ now has a large enough base that it may rival ASHI's board and it is allot more relaxed here, however TIJ does not have "Inspection World" available for additional training and an opportunity to meet other fine Inspectors face to face. ASHI has taught me that while I may be a great inspector in my area I am not knowledgeable in all aspects of construction across the country. For example; an old house here is something built before 1960. We have very few basements, or crawl spaces. we run our plumbing 12 inches below the ground and through the attic in many houses...

ASHI and any organization is only as good as the people involved in it. If you expect to join the local chamber of commerce and instantly get referrals from it, good luck, If you get involved and participate it can become a great source of referrals.

I met with Nick from NACHI the other day, He told a group of people that ASHI is about education and NACHI is about marketing.

Basically that is true. Both organizations have some education and marketing but overall one does more than the other in each area.

That does not make one better than the other. It may make one more attractive to an individual than another, because that is what they need.

It may be that you are so blessed that you don't need the assistance of any organization, if that is the case you should thank what ever God it is that you worship.

These personal attacks do not benefit anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however before you post it for the rest of the world to see, ask yourself;

Why am I posting this?[%|]

Is this fact or my opinion? (There is a difference)[:-graduate]

Is the person I am responding to in a similar market or geographic region?[:-idea]

I used to post 4-10 messages a day, now I ask myself these questions and I post 4-10 a week.

[Brian G]

Originally posted by swarga

ASHI is a great place to receive technical knowledge and has been for years. Only recently did ASHI put a big emphasis on marketing. Marketing has always taken a back seat to the training. (In my opinion that is how it should be)

Only someone who does not look at the whole picture would make general statements like "$750 is to much to belong to an organization for a web link."

If that was all there was to it that would be true, however, ASHI has allowed me to meet some of the best inspectors in the country and develop relationships with them.

ASHI has taught me that while I may be a great inspector in my area I am not knowledgeable in all aspects of construction across the country.

ASHI and any organization is only as good as the people involved in it.

It may be that you are so blessed that you don't need the assistance of any organization, if that is the case you should thank what ever God it is that you worship.

These personal attacks do not benefit anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...

I agree with all of that. Make it a double.

Brian G.

[allspec33351]

In order for me to respond properly I have to do the old fashion way, thought by thought. As to my preamble, this is with respect and my opinions based on my knowledge in my market.

Chris wrote: Allow me to return this thread to the ASHI discussion that started it.

Captain responds: no problem

Chris wrote: ASHI is a nation wide organization but it's exposure is not the same nation wide. That is why they started branding.

Captain responds: I have been told branding was started because of the fact that 50% of the states have some form of licensing. In order for ASHI to be/stay important this branding strategy was developed.

Chris wrote: The ASHI presence is not the same in Fort Worth TX. and Phoenix, AZ.

Captain responds: I take your word for that

Here in the Phoenix metro area one of the first questions a Realtor will ask is, are an ASHI member. If you are not in ASHI they don't refer you.

Captain responds: Again I take your word for that. In my market in seven years ASHI has been brought up less that once a year.

Chris wrote: ASHI is a great place to receive technical knowledge and has been for years.

Captain responds: I’m not sure how you receive technical knowledge from ASHI The Reporter, the forum, local chapter, or inspection world.

Chris wrote: Only recently did ASHI put a big emphasis on marketing. Marketing has always taken a back seat to the training. (In my opinion that is how it should be)

Captain responds: Absolutely correct sir.

Chris wrote: Only someone who does not look at the whole picture would make general statements like "$750 is to much to belong to an organization for a web link."

Captain responds: Absolutely correct sir.

Chris wrote: If that was all there was to it that would be true, however, ASHI has allowed me to meet some of the best inspectors in the country and develop relationships with them. I am not afraid or embarrassed to call Doug, or Kurt and say "I haven't seen this before, do you know what is wrong?"

Captain responds: If you are starting out in this industry I would suggest you join a home inspector organization that has a local chapter that is available to you.

Chris wrote: TIJ now has a large enough base that it may rival ASHI's board and it is allot more relaxed here, however TIJ does not have "Inspection World" available for additional training and an opportunity to meet other fine Inspectors face to face. ASHI has taught me that while I may be a great inspector in my area I am not knowledgeable in all aspects of construction across the country. For example; an old house here is something built before 1960. We have very few basements, or crawl spaces. we run our plumbing 12 inches below the ground and through the attic in many houses...

Captain responds: Inspection world is open to anyone who wants to attend. You don’t have to belong to ASHI to go.

Chris wrote: ASHI and any organization is only as good as the people involved in it. If you expect to join the local chamber of commerce and instantly get referrals from it, good luck, If you get involved and participate it can become a great source of referrals.

Captain responds: I have found that weather it is another inspector or a member of a chamber it takes time.

Chris wrote: I met with Nick from NACHI the other day, He told a group of people that ASHI is about education and NACHI is about marketing.

Captain responds: No comment.

Chris wrote: Basically that is true. Both organizations have some education and marketing but overall one does more than the other in each area.

That does not make one better than the other. It may make one more attractive to an individual than another, because that is what they need.

Captain responds: When you start out in this business you need to communicate with other inspectors that have been around for awhile.

Chris wrote: It may be that you are so blessed that you don't need the assistance of any organization, if that is the case you should thank what ever God it is that you worship.

Captain responds: No one is that blessed. You need people that have been there and done it.

Chris wrote: These personal attacks do not benefit anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however before you post it for the rest of the world to see, ask yourself;

Captain responds: It seems to always come down to that with certain people.

Chris wrote: Why am I posting this?

Captain responds: For another point of view.

Chris wrote: Is this fact or my opinion? (There is a difference)

Captain responds:Both

Chris wrote: Is the person I am responding to in a similar market or geographic region?

Captain responds: I don’t know.

Chris wrote: I used to post 4-10 messages a day, now I ask myself these questions and I post 4-10 a week.

Captain responds: About the same or less

ASHI has not changed in many of the areas that I hope it would. It is run very secretively. It is not transparent. Members are not following the standards or ethics and nothing was being done. Our client became the realtor and not the buyer. The forum was reined in to form a group mentality of passive non question group. I did not join ASHI for marketing and when they turned their guns to marketing, I knew it wasn’t for me any longer.

However if you are new to this industry you can only learn so much from these forums. Go to and join a local chapter. And after a number of years you can evaluate if you want to stay or go.

BTW my business is up a little since I left. Wasn’t that the original question?

Captain

[kurt]

Well, actually, it was Scott, not Chris....

[chrisprickett]

Originally posted by kurt

Well, actually, it was Scott, not Chris....

Common mistake, we look alot alike...

[allspec33351]

I do apologize to both of you Scott and Chris.

But it does show us that one person is astute.

That is what happens when you get home from an inspection and your head is still spinning.

Again I do apologize

Captain confused

[chrisprickett]

You complimented Scott,

you insulted me![^]

[allspec33351]

Originally posted by chrisprickett

You complimented Scott,

you insulted me![^]

Chris

I'm sure it was Scott that was insulted and not you. Then again I just not sure.[:-dev3]

Captain I need my meds [:-banghead]

[mcramer]

Originally posted by allspec33351

ASHI has not changed in many of the areas that I hope it would. It is run very secretively. It is not transparent.

Hogwash. Any member can attend any meeting of the Board, or other meetings for that matter.

Members are not following the standards or ethics and nothing was being done.

Hogwash again. ASHI is the ONLY organization that has a staff position devoted to chasing down violators. But as you know, that kind of stuff is just about impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But at least ASHI has tried.

Our client became the realtor and not the buyer.

Hogwash.

The forum was reined in to form a group mentality of passive non question group.

No, one person was kicked off the forum for bad behavior. Believe me, there is still plenty of questioning that goes on there.

I did not join ASHI for marketing and when they turned their guns to marketing, I knew it wasn’t for me any longer.

Your choice, of course. And I can respect that. But please don't go trashing ASHI or its members by saying things that are not true.

Love and kisses,

[allspec33351]

Mark wrote

Hogwash. Any member can attend any meeting of the Board, or other meetings for that matter.

Captain hopefully got the right name replies:

When I talk about transparent and secretive I mean. There are no minutes of the board and various committees on the web site or the reporter. There are no financial reports on the web or the reported except one. I don't know the hierarchy of ASHI but I have read on the forum that members have been denied access to meeting and that a secrecy agreement has to be signed.

Mark wrote

Hogwash again. ASHI is the ONLY organization that has a staff position devoted to chasing down violators. But as you know, that kind of stuff is just about impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But at least ASHI has tried.

Captain responds: And how is the membership going to believe this when there is no record for the membership to decide. When the ethics committee says that something like brinks program is not ethical and is against our ethic yet the program continues within ASHI members.

Mark wrote Hogwash in reply to my comment that our client has become the Realtor due to marketing.

Well if ASHI is marketing mainly in branding to the Realtor than that in my opinion means that person (Realtor)is my client.

Mark wrote

No, one person was kicked off the forum for bad behavior. Believe me, there is still plenty of questioning that goes on there.

Captain says: Yes in technical issues but when it comes to nontechnical issues barely a whimper is heard in opposition.

Mark continued Your choice, of course. And I can respect that. But please don't go trashing ASHI or its members by saying things that are not true.

Captain replies

I am in no way trashing ASHI and for you to take it that way is dead wrong. I'm telling anyone reading this that there are a number of things that caused me to leave.

Branding

Secrecy

Non enforcement

Censorship on the Forum

You have no idea how hard it was for me or others like me to leave. I left in hopes that ASHI may reevaluate itself as to what it is doing. And for you to say I'm trashing ASHI only means that I did the right thing by leaving.

xxxxx 000000

Captain

[Jim Morrison]

Mark,

I think you're being disingenuous when you imply all ASHI business is conducted in the open. Let's not forget that nothing which occurs or is said in Executive Session is recorded in the minutes, and the current and most recent administrations just LOVE to go into executive session.

Then, there's the oath of secrecy that one must take if you want to receive a copy of the board book. This book is absolutely essential if you want to understand the goings-on at a Board meeting and there is a hyper-secretive oath you have to sign before they'll let Board members or Council reps see one. Most council reps would not sign it, feeling that it was so restrictive as to prohibit us from doing our jobs as council reps.

Of course, the "Please do not copy any portion of this correspondence for any reason without written permission of the author" at the bottom of almost every email from an officer or board member is just silly.

And the attempts to remove, censure, and banish the Speaker of the CoR from the Board meetings cannot be ignored either.

The move towards transparency has so far been, well...transparent. ASHI may be operated more out in the open than other orgs I'm familar with, but is still way too secretive in my opinion. After all, we're just a bunch of home inspectors, not the CIA. Or are we?....

That said, I can't moderate a discussion I'm part of, so I'll bow out here. It's just that your claims were too outrageous to leave unchallenged.

[Brian G]

In my opinion ASHI has serious problems with its political structure and some of its policys. During the debate over Branding the dividing line between those in favor and those opposed fell almost exactly along the lines of who did and did not have an ASHI title under their name. Membership was indifferent at best, violently opposed at worst. Leadership didn't care. When told by consultants that losses could run 30%, they forged ahead anyway. I'm totally unable understand how they could rationalize the prospect of such significant losses as the elected representatives of ALL members, including the 30% they were willing to jettison.

Some parts of the program are good (IMHO). The new website and more aggressive internet presence were overdue. I would have paid the increase for that alone. But ASHI should be quietly moving away from realtors, not towards them, with the ultimate aim of cutting them out of our business equation altogether. The aim of dominating local markets to the point where one must be ASHI in order to work is repugnant, in my view. Monopolies are never in the best interests of anyone, not even the monopolizing party in the long run. Given that ASHI is unable to effectively police its members (for whatever reason), there would surely be more than a few who would join, work to meet the minimum requirements, and then set off on an endless, profitable run of substandard work that would embarass us all. The "Special Forces" metality that appealed to me has been supplanted by a desire to be overwhelmingly huge and powerful, ultimately to the benefit of ASHI national and the detriment of the individual ASHI member. I pray for the return of the ASHI where excellence was top priority, not sales. The creme of the crop, not the whole damned harvest.

All my personal opinion.

Brian G.

[mcramer]

Originally posted by allspec33351

You have no idea how hard it was for me or others like me to leave. I left in hopes that ASHI may reevaluate itself as to what it is doing. And for you to say I'm trashing ASHI only means that I did the right thing by leaving.

xxxx 000000

Captain

Mitch, you are trashing ASHI. Your statements are simply not true. As I know you're an honest fellow, I'm sure you believe them to be true in your own mind. Let me gently suggest that you are forming opinions without knowing all of the facts. I'm just sorry to see you fall into that black hole. Now let's get back to something constructive.

[allspec33351]

mcramer

Mitch, you are trashing ASHI. Your statements are simply not true. As I know you're an honest fellow, I'm sure you believe them to be true in your own mind. Let me gently suggest that you are forming opinions without knowing all of the facts. I'm just sorry to see you fall into that black hole. Now let's get back to something constructive.

Mark

Hogwash, tell me the facts if you can. Tell me about brinks, tell me about relationships with Realtors, tell me about the financial, tell me about the minutes, tell me about home link, tell me about concierge and I'll listen.

And please do not get in the gutter and do not insult me. I believe you are honest but I also believe that you are blinded by your unyielding love for ASHI.

Captain

[Scottpat]

Mark

Hogwash, tell me the facts if you can. Tell me about brinks, tell me about relationships with Realtors, tell me about the financial, tell me about the minutes, tell me about home link, tell me about concierge and I'll listen.

And please do not get in the gutter and do not insult me. I believe you are honest but I also believe that you are blinded by your unyielding love for ASHI.

Captain

If you read the new ASHI CoE you will find the answers to most if not all of your questions. The new CoE is the reason that the USInspect folks and NPI folks say they are leaving ASHI from what I understand. They are too strict and limit their solicitation of additional services.

As for working with Realtors, if you don't like it don't do it! It does not bother me one bit to get referrals and to ask for business from Realtors. The majority of inspectors from across the country have seen have the same opinion from what I have seen.

[Scottpat]

I must say that for the most part, home inspectors are very negative in their observations and opinions. Anything positive is put to the side; overlooked or seldom mentioned. This is a major flaw of being a home inspector. Not all inspectors fall into this category, but those are few and far between.

What I have a hard time understanding is why the battle over ASHI changing is still rampant? It is done with and as of last Friday 94.7% of members and C2 members have signed up and are supporting the change. So if you did sign up for the ASHI Experience wouldn’t it be easier to support it instead of trying to tear it down?

As for the argument of ASHI being transparent? If you belong to ASHI you can access the last BoD (April, 2004) meeting minutes including a balance sheet for ASHI. You can also find many other documents including committee reports and assigned task for the upcoming year, work plans and the Strategic Plan of ASHI. Go to the members section and look under documents. I would call that a major change in the transparency of ASHI compared to the past.

It is so easy to be negative when you are trying to find fault with something. Try to look at the benefits and if you can’t overpower your negative attitude than it is best to trod your own path toward a dismal way of life.

[Brian G]

Originally posted by Scottpat

I must say that for the most part, home inspectors are very negative in their observations and opinions.

I think it's a mistake to confuse "critical" with "negative". HI's are naturally critical, which is to say they examine closely and think for themselves. They begin with a mental reserve (not an eagerness to agree), and wait to see if they're persuaded otherwise. That isn't bad, it's healthy.

---

What I have a hard time understanding is why the battle over ASHI changing is still rampant?

It is done with and as of last Friday 94.7% of members and C2 members have signed up and are supporting the change.

NOT true. That's one of the primary reasons I felt I could not pay. Anyone who paid is counted as "in favor of" by the proponents, even though everyone knows that is not the case. The battle goes on because many are still unhappy about it.

---

So if you did sign up for the ASHI Experience wouldn’t it be easier to support it instead of trying to tear it down?

Yes, unless they signed up in spite of, rather than because of.

---

It is so easy to be negative when you are trying to find fault with something. Try to look at the benefits and if you can’t overpower your negative attitude than it is best to trod your own path toward a dismal way of life.

It's even easier when the target is seriously flawed. Anyone who doesn't agree with Branding is doomed to a life of misery? Gimme a break. If leadership wanted enthusiastic support, they should have built it with the members before putting this through.

Brian G.

[swarga]

I am an American.

I choose to be in America.

I am proud to be an American and will defend it if needed.

I do not agree with everything that the President or elected officials does but I voted for them and I know that they are doing what they believe is right.

They may have knowledge about things that I don't but, I don't need to know everything if it will violate others rights.

I am involved in making this a better country and have made it a point to stay informed.

I get pissed off when some kid thinks they know it all and they never investigate what they are talking about before they go off running their mouth just because they can.

I am an ASHI Member.

I choose to be in ASHI.

I am proud to be in ASHI and will defend it if needed.

I do not agree with everything that the President or elected officials does but I voted for them and I know that they are doing what they believe is right.

They may have knowledge about things that I don't but, I don't need to know everything if it will violate others rights.

I am involved in making this a better organization and have made it a point to stay informed.

I get pissed off when some person thinks they know it all and they never investigate what they are talking about before they go off running their mouth just because they can.

Did this help put it in perspective?

It is always easier to tear down barriers that get in your way than to climb over them but through the climb we become stronger and frequently when we pass over the barrier we realize why it was built to begin with.

[kurt]

Originally posted by swarga, in part

It is always eaiser to tear down bairrers that get in your way than to climb over them but through the climb we become stronger and ferquently when we pass over the barrier we realize why it was built to begin with.

Geeez Scott, that was pretty good; I'm gonna scratch that one in the wall.

[Brian G]

Originally posted by Scottpat

As for working with Realtors, if you don't like it don't do it! It does not bother me one bit to get referrals and to ask for business from Realtors. The majority of inspectors from across the country have seen have the same opinion from what I have seen.

Almost forgot about this one. I do it, and it doesn't particularly bother me because I know I have no choice at this point. But I don't want my HI organization activly reinforcing their "gatekeeper" status as a policy. I don't accept the idea that the mere use of the term "stakeholder" constitutes total capitulation, but it is a move in the wrong direction. I'd rather see us going around them to the end user more and more, until they become a minor source of referrals instead of THE major one.

Brian G.

[chrisprickett]

Originally posted by Brian G.

Originally posted by Scottpat

As for working with Realtors, if you don't like it don't do it! It does not bother me one bit to get referrals and to ask for business from Realtors. The majority of inspectors from across the country have seen have the same opinion from what I have seen.

Almost forgot about this one. I do it, and it doesn't particularly bother me because I know I have no choice at this point. But I don't want my HI organization activly reinforcing their "gatekeeper" status as a policy. I don't accept the idea that the mere use of the term "stakeholder" constitutes total capitulation, but it is a move in the wrong direction. I'd rather see us going around them to the end user more and more, until they become a minor source of referrals instead of THE major one.

Brian G.

Just for clarification: "Working" with Realtors and "Marketing" to Realtors, are two entirely different things. I have relationships with Realtors (plenty of them) and they refer me all the time. But I do not market to them.

A Realtor calls my office to book an inspection. If they like my style, they call again. I send thank you cards for every referral. If they ask for brochures or cards, I give them.

I do not:

Cold Call Realtors

Ask to put my literature in their office

Give any type of discount (or kickback) for a referral

Pay to advertise in their publications, or websites.

I do:

Let them put a link to my site, from theirs, if it's free.(but not the other way around)

Write a monthly article for a newsletter that a Realtor puts out. This particular Realtor has proven, over time, that she is a true "buyers agent" and has their best interest in mind.

The term "agent is a stakeholder" get thrown out a lot. I control my business, not ASHI.

Brian, you say you have "no choice" but to market to Realtors. What does that mean? You always have a choice. You choose to market to Realtors. Nothing wrong with that. But to market to Realtors yourself, and then question ASHI's motives, because you feel they are focusing on Realtors, that's inconsistent at best.