Brandon Whitmore Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Can anyone tell me why they specify 2 nails per stud for face nailing under note w, while requiring only 1 nail per stud for concealed fastening? This is in regards to fiber cement lap siding......... Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted September 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Also, where would you place the second nail per stud? I noticed this note on James Hardie's installation instructions: Face Nailing should only be used where required for high wind areas and must not be used in conjunction with Blind Nailing I'm trying to think of one installation where no face nails were installed when the system was blind nailed. Doesn't that mean that we should see no face nails anywhere in the system (when blind nailed as is typically the case)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Hi, Unlike wood siding, where, due to expansion-contration concerns, when you face nail you want the nail to miss the top of the clapboard being overlapped, with fiber-cement siding when you face nail it each clapboard is penetrated twice - once near the top and once just above the drip edge - sort of like how the top 2 inches of a correctly-nailed comp shingle gets secured. Face nailing should only be done in high-wind areas. You see the face nail on the bottom of the clap and that nail is the second nail that secures the top of the one that clap overlaps. Image Insert: 13.67 KB ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted September 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 [:-paperba Man do I feel stupid (hitting myself in the head right now), I was thinking of 2 exposed nails and couldn't place where that second one would go........... Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Ah, Don't hit yourself; after all, the guy who wrote that rule didn't say 3 nails one course below butt joints of face-nailed siding. [] ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted September 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Face Nailing should only be used where required for high wind areas and must not beused in conjunction with Blind Nailing I'm trying to think of one installation where no face nails were installed when the system was blind nailed. Doesn't that mean that we should see no face nails anywhere in the system (when blind nailed as is typically the case)? I'd love to hear an answer to this one.......... Mike, don't make me look stupid again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Hi, Well, when the system is truly blind nailed you don't see the nails...period. I had two houses last week like that. I see them all the time. I also see the ones that are meant to be blind nailed but where the installer can't get the stuff to lie flat and resorts to face nailing here and there. The trouble with this system is that lots of folks don't bother to install a starter strip behind the bottom course and somewhere on the wall they'll end up with a course that's a fraction of an inch too low. This causes the bottom edges of the low course, particularly at the butts, to lever away from the face of the underlying clap and the only way that they can get them to lie flat is by face nailing the bottom corners on both side of the joint. Some guys drive a single nail in between the two claps at the butt to hold them flat instead of using two. When the stuff is installed right it will either be all blind nailed or all face nailed. It wouldn't be necessary to do it both ways if folks would bother to read the instructions and install the proper thickness of starter course at the bottom of the wall. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Some guys drive a single nail in between the two claps at the butt to hold them flat instead of using two. I do that. I use a serrated, stainless 6d siding nail. Sometimes, even when everything is right, the butts don't line up perfect and they require the gentle discipline of a nail's insistence to disappear in a continuous plane. I flash the joints for weather and caulk for looks. The nail disappears in the caulk stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted September 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 You will also not have a smooth/ flat wall plane with bowed studs, etc. which holds out the siding. Seeing as how the manufacturer says "do not face nail", I was curious as to your thoughts regarding adding some face nails. I'm also wondering why they specifically state that face nails should "not" be installed-- what can happen. It seems like adding face nails is a pretty common repair when siding is improperly fastened. Siding slowly loosens up and can slide down when nails are over- driven. Seems to me like adding face nails should be an adequate repair, but maybe not..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Hi, Actually, they say, "Face nailing should only be used where required and should not be used in conjuction with blind nailing." I think the reason they don't want folks face naililng along with blind nailing is that once the weather/temperature changes those tacked butts will stick out like sore thumbs. If the whole thing is face nailed then you don't see big differences from one area to another in how claps react to those changes. That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it until someone proves I've got my head tucked up my butt (Well, I do anyway, but that's beside the point). ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 The installation instructions only allow mixed nailing for replacing damaged claps, the only way to blind nail those is to tear off everything above the area to be repaired. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Hi, Well, on todays brand new home that's sided with Hardiplank, the siding is blind nailed and just about every butt joint was double face nailed. Really big builder - this'll go over like a screen door on a submarine. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted September 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Well, on todays brand new home that's sided with Hardiplank, the siding is blind nailed and just about every butt joint was double face nailed. Really big builder - this'll go over like a screen door on a submarine. That's kinda the standard around here to add nails at each butt joint to hold things together-------so I take it you're gonna call it out. Let me know how it goes[:-slaphap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Originally posted by hausdok Hi, Well, on todays brand new home that's sided with Hardiplank, the siding is blind nailed and just about every butt joint was double face nailed. Really big builder - this'll go over like a screen door on a submarine. OT - OF!!! M. Hmm. Can you give me a believeable reason why this is bad? - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Other than the manufacturer says not to do it? No. I plan to call JH in the morning and ask them what the consequences of this are. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 I have had two projects with JH siding that had issues with defects, one as the installing contractor and the other as the dealer supplying material. On the installed project all of the JH trim boards delaminated. It took some time, but JH paid for the labor to replace the trim and even provided Azek molding to replace their own defective product. On the other project the builder botched several details and basically failed to follow the instructions, a JH rep inspected the building and said that there was no warranty, end of story. If the details are correct JH will go above and beyond, eat the instruction book and you are on your own. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Hi, Yeah, that's what's got me concerned. From JH's instructions (underlining is mine): IMPORTANT: FAILURE TO INSTALL AND FINISH THIS PRODUCT IN ACCORDANCE WITH APPLICABLE BUILDING CODES AND JAMES HARDIE WRITTEN APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS MAY LEAD TO PERSONAL INJURY, AFFECT SYSTEM PERFORMANCE, VIOLATE LOCAL BUILDING CODES, AND VOID THE PRODUCT ONLY WARRANTY. I've put in a call to their technical department but got the voice mail. I'm waiting for a call back from the mountain. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Hi, Just realized that there're two different threads going on this same subject. Hi, Just got off the phone with Freddy from JH Tech Services. He said that, despite what the installation sheet says, they wouldn't void the warranty for nailed butt joints in conjunction with face nailing because the product can be face nailed. I asked him if he was aware of any negative consequences that might acrue as a result of doing that and he said he didn't know but forwarded me to their engineering department for the answer. Got their voice mail again and am standing by. Before Freddy transferred me, I asked him about the flashings and the caulking; he said that basically any approved flashing, even felt, will do but if aluminum is used it must be painted so that it can't come into contact with the concrete siding. He said that siders can still use caulk if they want to but they don't recommend it, because their experience in the field has shown that it's not necessary as long as the joints are flashed and the siding looks better without it. Given the lack of knowledge that most siding installation crews have today about such things as corrosion due to aluminum/concrete contact, I think an installer would be just plain foolish to use aluminum flashings when there are so many other options that won't cause any issues. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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