Brandon Whitmore Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 This looks like an EPDM roof to me, what say you? I haven't seen a membrane quite like this one as it is much thicker than I am used to seeing. The MLS listing shows the roof as a built up roof, but this looks like a single ply. Is there any chance that a roofer would go to the trouble of installing a hot mop roof and then install this type of membrane as a cap sheet? Doesn't seem likely to me. What about these installation details? Click to View 69.72 KB Click to View 64.78 KB Click to View 60.11 KB Click to View 79.36 KB Click to View 59.13 KB Would you consider this standing water to be enough to call it ponding? It is up to about an 3/4 " deep in areas. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Here's a couple more pic's of the standing water... Click to View 60.28 KB Click to View 68.97 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 It sure looks like modified bitumen. It needs UV protection. Terminating it vertically and smearing goop on the top edge is not an acceptable flashing detail and will soon separate. The plumbing vent penetrations will leak too. If that water stands for more than 24 hours, it's ponding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caryseidner Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 That IS GAF's ruberoid modified bitumen. Like Bill said, it's all wrong. All of the correct flashing details can be found at GAF's website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 It doesn't look/ feel like any mod. bit I am used to, but I am not arguing. It is much thicker and more firm than the stuff I have seen. Of course, I don't look at many flat roofs in these parts (you guy's answered my questions on the last flat roof I saw). Thanks for the info. , I have something to go on now. PS: The roof was just installed in Sep. '08 and is fully warrantied by the roofer - just thought you would want to know. Heck, it only has one leak I can find right now. I know the 24 (48) hour rule, but at what temp/ under what conditions? (I am guessing any temp/ weather conditions)-- in this case it is ponding) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energy star Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The roof is in very bad shape. I see no skuttle holes. The drains must be installed somewhere but I don't see them, and the chimney needs some attention. I can only imagine the moisture under the roof membrane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The roof is in very bad shape. I see no skuttle holes. The drains must be installed somewhere but I don't see them, and the chimney needs some attention. There are 3 drains total-- 2 scuppers and one built in. The scuppers are placed at each end of the raised center platform as shown in pic 1. Click to View 66.46 KB Click to View 59.04 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 That is GAF's ruberoid modified bitumen Cary, Thanks for the manufacturers info. The realtors are working on getting the info. to me so I can write up the report. I told them I had plenty of concerns, but that I would not send out the report until I saw the manufacturers installation instructions. It should save me an argument with the roofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energy star Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Yeah I see from the pics now. I thought the skuttle holes had to exit at the lowest point? That roof looks as if it has been on for a long time, since Sept of 08 is a shocker. I had a 13,000 sq ft flat roof on my building. PITA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caryseidner Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 You're welcome Brandon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Originally posted by energy star The roof is in very bad shape. I see no skuttle holes. The drains must be installed somewhere but I don't see them, and the chimney needs some attention. I can only imagine the moisture under the roof membrane. What do you think are "skuttle holes" and why should you see them in a roof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energy star Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 When I have done tin work on a large building, I had to cut around and install a skuttle hole at the same level at the lowest point of the roof all the way around the building. These holes, or rather penitrations went through the parapet wall so no water would stand on the roof if the drains towards the center of the building happened to get clogged or blocked. You could roll a golf ball on the roof and right out the hole if you know what I mean. Scuttle (sp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Originally posted by energy star When I have done tin work on a large building, I had to cut around and install a skuttle hole at the same level at the lowest point of the roof all the way around the building. These holes, or rather penitrations went through the parapet wall so no water would stand on the roof if the drains towards the center of the building happened to get clogged or blocked. You could roll a golf ball on the roof and right out the hole if you know what I mean. When answering questions from other inspectors, we try to use the correct terms. If I don't know the correct word or phrase to describe something, I either look it up or wait for someone who knows to respond. You might want to look up skuttle (scuttle), then scupper and while your at it look up "penitrations". One of the smarter guys on this board has said frequently that we as inspectors need to communicate so we cannot be misunderstood. I think it's best to not spew forth made-up names of building parts where many come to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Manor Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I have always thought that a scuttle was an attic hatch. -Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energy star Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Sorry bout that. I did not want to mislead anyone. The term used on a job in GA was skuttle but I spelled it wrong and never really cared to look it up. I was just making an observation that I did not see any penetrations at roof level for the water to run out. Then the OP then pointed that out and posted more pics. Sorry bout that, guess I had the term wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Bill and Cary, thanks for keeping this on track. I've been on a big flat roof all afternoon......... If it isn't mod bit, I'd be very surprised. As everyone has already noted, the installation details are execrable and the lack of drainage dooms this installation. Fixing this roof means tearing it off, installing tapered foam to provide drainage, and reinstalling with termination bars, counterflashing, and appropriate details around the penetrations/chimneys/parapets/coping (or lack thereof). I use the GAF specs often. The NRCA details parallel or are the same as most of the GAF specs. The mfg. (whoever it is) would take one look at this and wash their hands of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Ponding as defined by the NRCA: Ponding the excessive accumulation of water at low-lying areas on a roof that remains after the 48 hours after the end rainfall under conditions conducive to drying. Thanks again to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Yes. Around here, ponding is anything that hangs around 48 to 72 hours, depending on which mfg. rep you're talking to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Problem is, you could argue what conditions are "conducive to drying". Where is the cut off -- 100 deg. day with 40 mph winds, 50 deg. with no wind or rain for 48 hours.......... I wish it were better defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 With that POS roof, definitions of ponding are superfluous. The sucker doesn't drain. Every visible detail from your photos screams incompetent installation. Anyone wants to argue fine points of drying times, I'd take my riding crop across their lips for talking back......... I know what you mean about the definition, but it's not something that can be clearly defined. Too many variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore Problem is, you could argue what conditions are "conducive to drying". Where is the cut off -- 100 deg. day with 40 mph winds, 50 deg. with no wind or rain for 48 hours.......... I wish it were better defined. In our region, you could define it as, "not till June." - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Yeah Kurt, I wasn't even thinking about that roof any more, I've just always wondered. Part way through this roof evaluation, I noticed I had already taken 30 pic's and just quit. I wanted the manufacturers instructions so there were no arguments. The listing agent promised to get me the info. yesterday so I could pull the instructions up. Haven't heard back for some reason....huh...... There are probably a couple of manufacturers that will not void their roof warranty due to ponding. I know Duro- last is (or was) one of them. Does anyone know of any others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Quote: Originally posted by Kurt Anyone wants to argue fine points of drying times, I'd take my riding crop across their lips for talking back......... Riding crop? [:-bigeyesDo you wear a bustier and fishnet stockings along with that?OT - OF!!!M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I like to dominate the discussion, as it were......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caryseidner Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore There are probably a couple of manufacturers that will not void their roof warranty due to ponding. I know Duro- last is (or was) one of them. Does anyone know of any others? Brandon - Not with Mod. Bit. Some Coal Tar Pitch, EPDM & TPO systems can be installed and warrantied from the manufacturer when ponding conditions are present. However it would be extremely unlikely you would ever come across one of those "specially designed" systems on a residential roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.