Aqua Therm heating system

[Charlie R]

I see them here in the high-rise condos, most of them use heated water from the gas water heater. These condos are pretty small, probably 600 sq ft or so, only issues I've noted are that the water heater was replaced and the new heater isn't correct, or hooked up correctly, and you really have to keep the coils clean on these as I have found a lot of fungal growth in them. I have an inspection today and I'm pretty sure I'll see one.

[Erby]

[brSo, don't sweat too much about a couple bugs......they might be good for yez.......

Granny always said a kid should eat a peck of dirt before they're 18!

-

[hausdok]

Hi Guys. I lost my home in Waveland Ms to Katrina. Two years before my heating system had problems and a local contractor suggested a aqua therm system. As I remember, we installed a larger hot water heater,a copper line to a coil and a water pump.

This system worked great and I was very satisfied with. Now this is what I remember and I am sure I left out something, so cut me some slack. I would like to install the same type system in my,new to me house. I dont understand the thing about the water contamination angle ? I always had plenty of hot water for showers etc. and the water tasted like it did before the change.

I'm a newbe and this should be considered before piling on.

Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.tks Chuck

Hi,

The contamination occurs when water in the heating circuits of the system isn't changed and bacteria growth occurs.

These systems cannot be built in such a way that they have constant flow through the heating system. There are a couple of reasons for this; one is that with constant flow through the heating system the pipes and fittings can be damaged by scouring - another is that you'd have heat radiating off the system 24/7/365.

Instead of designing them as flow-through systems, designers place the heating loop off to one side of a primary circulation loop and cycle water to the heating circuits only when heat is needed. That means that in an open system ,where there is no separation between the water in the heating loop and the water that you drink, bacteria growth can occur in circuits of rooms where you don't turn on the heat during the heating season and during summertime as water sits in those circuits for days, weeks and even months before freshly chlorinated water is sent into those circuits to flush them clean.

Around here, some designers place a programmable 24-hour timer on the system and set it up to circulate water into every one of the heating circuits for about 15 minutes once or twice ever 24 hours to flush out the water with fresh chlorinated water. It works but it means that one is forced to literally heat every room for a short time every day - not really something folks want to do in the middle of a really hot summer.

Lately, designers of these systems have been separating the heating circuits from the potable water circuits by installing a plate heat exchanger, a second circulator and a second expansion tank on the heating side of the exchanger. With that setup, when heat is called for one circulator cycles water through the water heater side of the exchanger while the other cycles water through the heating circuits that are calling for heat. Heat is transferred from the water in the water heater side of the system to the water in the heating circuit side via the exchanger and the potable water and the water in the heating loop isn't mixed. With this setup, if the water inside the heating loop is rife with bio-organisms, none of those organisms can spread into the potable water and make a homeowner sick.

Homeowners and plumbers that don't understand the basis for this separation and construct systems that mix potable and heating water without timers or exchangers run the risk of making someone sick or, worse, killing someone.

The number of folks that are installing these systems and don't understand the basis for why the two sides need to be separated or have timers on them is substantial.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Tom Raymond]

In my neck of woods potable water and heat transfer water must be separated by at least one heat exchanger, and in some instances (particularly solar thermal) more than one heat exchanger. With all the stuff known to the State of California to cause great bodily harm I'm surprised you left coast folks still see open systems like these. You can't get much more reliable than a brazed plate heat exchanger.

As a side note, wouldn't a low temp radiant media like pex tubing or cast iron radiators (130 to 150 degrees) be far more efficient than heating water to heat air (180 or so)? At least you wouldn't toss so many BTUs at the tempering valve.

[Marc]

The concept of stagnant water becoming a breeding ground for bacteria in plumbing systems will surface again in residential sprinkler systems when that becomes required. Studying these new systems might help in understanding the concept.

Residential Sprinkler System Design Handbook

Marc

[hausdok]

The concept of stagnant water becoming a breeding ground for bacteria in plumbing systems will surface again in residential sprinkler systems when that becomes required. Studying these new systems might help in understanding the concept.

Residential Sprinkler System Design Handbook

Marc

Hi,

I've been seeing residential sprinkler systems around here for the past 3 or 4 years and so far it looks like the guys installing those systems are well acquainted with the concept because the systems I've seen are isolated by anti-backflow valves from the potable water systems.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brandon Whitmore]

I've been seeing residential sprinkler systems around here for the past 3 or 4 years and so far it looks like the guys installing those systems are well acquainted with the concept because the systems I've seen are isolated by anti-backflow valves from the potable water systems.

2 of my cousins are building good sized houses right now, and potable water flows right through the sprinkler pipes.

[Charlie R]

I was right, had one in a condo, here is a few pics of how I find them. The insulated lines are the supply and the return to the fan coil unit, the bare copper lines combine to a mixing valve. This arrangement allows maximum heating of the water for the heat purpose, mixing valve tempers the water down for domestic supply. At the fan coil is the pump switch, and as usual, the extremely dirty filter that allows both the A/C coil and the heat coil to get completely clogged. You have to remove the screws and then the cover to get to the filter and most homeowners don't make the effort. This unit was rated to give 30,000 BTU max. Obviously, the water heater was made for this application, but this one needs to be replaced, soon.

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[hausdok]

I've been seeing residential sprinkler systems around here for the past 3 or 4 years and so far it looks like the guys installing those systems are well acquainted with the concept because the systems I've seen are isolated by anti-backflow valves from the potable water systems.

2 of my cousins are building good sized houses right now, and potable water flows right through the sprinkler pipes.

Hi,

Did a pre-insulation/pre-drywall inspection on a new home yesterday. Two separate black poly pipes enter the crawl. The 1-1/4 inch pipe steps down immediately to 1-inch, transitions to PEX and supplies potable water; the 1-1/2-inch pipe steps down immediately to 1-1/4 inches. After that water passes through the anti-backflow device it transitions to 1-inch orange CPVC pipe. Many of the new sprinkler systems I've seen around here use pex to the sprinkler heads but this home used 1-inch CPVC throughout for distribution to the heads.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Tom Raymond]

Do you really need a sprinkler system in the PNW? Seems odd given the area's reputation for being 'damp'.

[Bryan]

Do you really need a sprinkler system in the PNW? Seems odd given the area's reputation for being 'damp'.

I think we are talking about both "fire protection" and "irrigation" sprinkler systems.

[Tom Raymond]

Ah, I forgot about the fire sprinklers. We're a tad bit behind on the code cycles here.

[hausdok]

Do you really need a sprinkler system in the PNW? Seems odd given the area's reputation for being 'damp'.

One would think not but irrigation sprinkler systems are ubiquitous here.

I think I once read somewhere that Phoenix gets more rain than we do during the summers.

Some builders here begain including fire sprinkler systems about two years ago.

Thinking about investing? The market for residential fire sprinklers is jumping from less than $400M a year to over $3B a year in 2011.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Crazymeiam]

Hi guys

We have an aquatherm and I was hoping someone could tell me where I could find the heat sensor ?  

New owner to a 1970’s home that came with a aquatherm system. We had a home warranty and a heating guy come out and he was in and out so quick and said our sensor needed cleaning. It needs cleaning again and we are hoping to do it ourselves. It’s hard to find anything on YouTube about these systems. 

Thank you 

Windi 

[Litster]

Hey all, can someone please tell me where exactly the filter is located in these Aqua Therm furnaces? As a renter, I am having difficulty locating the filter as I wish to change it bc my furnace is blowing cold air and I believe this to be the source of the problem. You tube offers me no advice on this particular make/model of furnace. It is the same Aqua Therm unit as you have pictured above. I've never seen this type before. VERY OLD. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Litster

[Marc]

6 hours ago, Litster said:

Hey all, can someone please tell me where exactly the filter is located in these Aqua Therm furnaces? As a renter, I am having difficulty locating the filter as I wish to change it bc my furnace is blowing cold air and I believe this to be the source of the problem. You tube offers me no advice on this particular make/model of furnace. It is the same Aqua Therm unit as you have pictured above. I've never seen this type before. VERY OLD. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

The air filter is typically situated within the return air grille, which is usually near the thermostat.

[Litster]

Thank you for your response. I am learning that my landlord did not have one in place to begin with so now taking dimensions for approx location? The furnace is filthy. I believe this to be the reason for our initial problem which was loss of heat in the vents. Any other advice would be appreciated. Apparently tenants responsibility to replace filters so I want to have any knowledge I can to improve this situation. 

[Marc]

2 minutes ago, Litster said:

Thank you for your response. I am learning that my landlord did not have one in place to begin with so now taking dimensions for approx location? The furnace is filthy. I believe this to be the reason for our initial problem which was loss of heat in the vents. Any other advice would be appreciated. Apparently tenants responsibility to replace filters so I want to have any knowledge I can to improve this situation. 

In the absence of an air filter, the coil will filter the air.  Doesn't work near as well and it's a whole lot harder to remedy when the coil gets dirty.

[Litster]

The Beast!🔥

[Jim Katen]

7 hours ago, Litster said:

Thank you for your response. I am learning that my landlord did not have one in place to begin with so now taking dimensions for approx location? The furnace is filthy. I believe this to be the reason for our initial problem which was loss of heat in the vents. Any other advice would be appreciated. Apparently tenants responsibility to replace filters so I want to have any knowledge I can to improve this situation. 

The cleanliness of the furnace and the state of the filters will have nothing whatsoever to do with loss of heat at the registers. A clogged filter will, in fact, slow the air flow and *increase* the temperature of the conditioned air. 

Your furnace needs to be serviced. Get a pro to do that. He or she can then show you the location of the filter and how to change it. 

By the way, I hope you're not blaming your landlord for the dirty condition of the outside of the furnace. The landlord didn't do that; tenants did. 

[Litster]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:16 PM, Jim Katen said:

The cleanliness of the furnace and the state of the filters will have nothing whatsoever to do with loss of heat at the registers. A clogged filter will, in fact, slow the air flow and *increase* the temperature of the conditioned air. 

Your furnace needs to be serviced. Get a pro to do that. He or she can then show you the location of the filter and how to change it. 

By the way, I hope you're not blaming your landlord for the dirty condition of the outside of the furnace. The landlord didn't do that; tenants did. 

Thanks Jim Katen for your insight. I have made an appt with a licensed professional to service the furnace.

This is not a DIY job by any means.

Even though tenants are responsible for such matters, and definitely not making excuses for the previous slobs who lived here before us but, we have a very negligent landlord who is hard to communicate with and doesn't care about their building (or furnace) one bit.

I always like to leave a place in better condition than when I found it. ☆

 

 

[Mike Elliott]

Hello.  There seems to be some Aqua Therm expertise on this board - expertise I have been hard-pressed to find.  We bought a home in Portland, OR that has one of these systems.  About four years ago, we replaced our water heaters.  Over the past 3 years or so we have been getting intermittent, but frequent, very bad odors in our dishwasher which has resulted in us having to re-run loads multiple times.  We are confident the dishwasher is not the problem as it has been replaced (more than once) with no change in the problem.  Is it possible that the Aqua Therm/water heater configuration could be the source of our impossible to pin down problem?  We have had multiple plumbers and dishwasher installers trying to figure out the problem - none have considered the Aqua Therm system.   Thanks!

[Marc]

22 minutes ago, Mike Elliott said:

Hello.  There seems to be some Aqua Therm expertise on this board - expertise I have been hard-pressed to find.  We bought a home in Portland, OR that has one of these systems.  About four years ago, we replaced our water heaters.  Over the past 3 years or so we have been getting intermittent, but frequent, very bad odors in our dishwasher which has resulted in us having to re-run loads multiple times.  We are confident the dishwasher is not the problem as it has been replaced (more than once) with no change in the problem.  Is it possible that the Aqua Therm/water heater configuration could be the source of our impossible to pin down problem?  We have had multiple plumbers and dishwasher installers trying to figure out the problem - none have considered the Aqua Therm system.   Thanks!

Can you confirm that a 'high loop' is present in the dishwasher drain hose? Take a few photos of the interior of the sink cabinet.

[Mike Elliott]

16 hours ago, Marc said:

Can you confirm that a 'high loop' is present in the dishwasher drain hose? Take a few photos of the interior of the sink cabinet.

Thanks for the response, Marc.  Since my posting, we've learned that the Aqua Therm is served by our tankless water heater and that it is a closed system, so likely not the cause of the smell.  Our potable water is served by electric water heaters which do not sit unused.

We do have a high loop with the dishwasher, so we don't think that's the cause.  We've had multiple plumbers look at that.  The mystery continues

[Erby]

 Would you compare the odor to rotten eggs - hydrogen sulfide or poop - sewer gas?