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Use of #14 in newer house.


Mark P

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. . . Since as already stated, as long as protected by a 15 amp circuit, #14 is fine. Only diff is that it can only be used for lighting, and #12 used for outlets.

Do you have any documentation to back up that assertion?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Yes, the NEC allows for only, and only #14 to be protected by no greater then a 15 amp breaker.

Um, not that part, the part about how #14 can only be used for lighting and not for outlets.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.
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. . . Since as already stated, as long as protected by a 15 amp circuit, #14 is fine. Only diff is that it can only be used for lighting, and #12 used for outlets.

Do you have any documentation to back up that assertion?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Yes, the NEC allows for only, and only #14 to be protected by no greater then a 15 amp breaker.

Um, not that part, the part about how #14 can only be used for lighting and not for outlets.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.
Now I've got a problem with the "most" jurisdictions part. Where did you get that from? I've never heard it and I can't remember ever hearing it from Doug Hansen. Is this something you learned in some home inspector school? Might you be fostering another unsubstantiated piece of inspectorlore? Please elaborate.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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Oh stop now. When's the last time you tripped a 15 amp breaker?

When I had 25 people over for a dinner party and I had 2 crock pots and an electric roaster running in the dining room. Fortunately I had wired the room in 12 AWG, so I grabbed a screw driver and swapped in a 20 amp breaker in the middle of the party. The 15 amp breaker worked for about an hour, all three cookers must have kicked on at the same time to pop it.

Tom

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Oh stop now. When's the last time you tripped a 15 amp breaker?

When I had 25 people over for a dinner party and I had 2 crock pots and an electric roaster running in the dining room. Fortunately I had wired the room in 12 AWG, so I grabbed a screw driver and swapped in a 20 amp breaker in the middle of the party. The 15 amp breaker worked for about an hour, all three cookers must have kicked on at the same time to pop it.

Tom

Hey Tom,

Did the all of the guys at the party grunt While you and Al changed out that Binford breaker?

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. . . Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.

I don't believe you. Do you have any documentation?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

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. . . Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.

I don't believe you. Do you have any documentation?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Check with local jurisdiction & Electricians. Rarely do you see #14 for outlets in new builds. All that I have seen, are #12 on 20 amp circuits. Lighting always on 15amp, most running #14. Problem is, I can back up my words by local code inspectors, and Electricians, along with NEC.
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OK,

Maybe ;you can in Springfield, IL. That doesn't mean that one "rarely" sees #14 in new builds for the rest of the country. In fact, that would be an outright lie here. Show it to me in the NEC and please cite it chapter and verse.

Let me give you an example of why I'm skeptical and why I'm being so insistent on this:

The NEC does not prohibit splicing grounded (neutral) conductors inside the panel, however, the city of Seattle does. Now, if I see neutrals spliced in a panel in the a house on the north side of N. 145th St. which is Shoreline (houses on the other side of that street are Seattle) and I make the blanket statement that "most jurisdications" don't allow neutrals to be spliced inside the panel, or I say that one "rarely" sees grounded conductors spliced in panels, and I do it based on what the City of Seattle says, then I'm spreading inspectorlore. I'm essentially lying to my client because I'm basing it on one little segment of what I've seen and I don't know for a fact that what I'm alleging is actually true.

I think this is what you are doing. I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but I think you're doing it nonetheless and it's simply not good form. Since you say it's there, please show it to us chapter and verse from the NEC.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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. . . Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.

I don't believe you. Do you have any documentation?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Check with local jurisdiction & Electricians. Rarely do you see #14 for outlets in new builds. All that I have seen, are #12 on 20 amp circuits. Lighting always on 15amp, most running #14. Problem is, I can back up my words by local code inspectors, and Electricians, along with NEC.

I just inspected a new construction home yesterday. Lots of receptacle outlets wired with #14.

Lots of receptacle outlets are sold out there with stab back connections that will *only* accept #14 wire.

If you can back up your words with the NEC, please do. What section prohibits #14 on a circuit with receptacle outlets?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

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I'll admit to a bit of amazement on this thread. Since I am also from Illinois, I'll allow as to how it may be the case downstate, as things are kinda goofy in the Land of Lincoln. I mean, Rod Blagovich...(?)....

That said, I'll also allow as to how Chicago metro has an extremely tight electrical code, possibly the tightest in the country. Local 134 of the IBEW makes sure that if it can be made more safe, more extreme, more involved, and more expensive (the better to pad membership payrolls), it's in the code, and it stays in the code. I won't bother you all with the particulars, but we can't use NMC in my 'hood; that should say a little bit right there.

#14 awg is the standard branch circuit run in Chicago. All general lighting and receptacles are wired with #14. Period.

The idea that #14 is somehow inadequate, or that someone believes it's insubstantial, is ridiculous.

The NEC is likely one of the most conservative documents in the world. We all know it approves #14 for lighting and receptacle runs. We all know it's entirely safe beyond any doubt whatsoever if it's run out of a 15 amp breaker.

On a personal level, I've run my entire wood shop on a couple 15 amp circuits on several occasions; not saying it's smart, but it sure as heck ran all of my heavy equipment.

I've had the opportunity to take Fire Science classwork where we hooked up #14 to amperage generators and cranked some ungodly number of electrons through it. It holds up just fine even when cranked with twice it's rated capacity; I can describe our experiments if anyone wishes. This wasn't to prove it's OK for 30 amp circuits, but it did illustrate just how substantial a load it can carry without overheating.

Until our new member comes up with some very specific code cites, backed up with links or other documentation for verification of how it is in his downstate municipality, I can't take him seriously.

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Mike,

What's Seattle's reasoning for disallowing splices in panels? Does the reg. apply to ungrounded (hot) conductors, as well?

Hi John,

Haven't a clue, really. I ran into it a few years ago when a code guy gigged the panel in one of my clients' homes. The client called to tell me about it. I remember calling someone downtown to confirm it was true 'cuz I didn't believe my client had the right information and 'cuz I see them spliced all the time. I don't call them. As far as I'm concerned, they're allowed by the NEC and I'm not a code enforcement guy.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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Not sure I can add a lot to what has been said here. There are two sides here and I think they are both right.

The National Electrical Code (NEC) does allow 14 gauge wire on a 15 amp breaker for most of the outlets and lighting loads in a home (and by the way in a commercial building too). There are many locations where 12 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit is required for outlets like; kitchen, dining, bathrooms, and laundry.

Local jurisdictions (and states) can change the rules of the NEC. Sometimes they make them stricter (as it sounds like some places in Illinois may have). As an example in Washington State we adopted the 2008 NEC but chose to stay with the AFCI requirements that are in the 2005 NEC.

I think the important thing to be aware of (as Michael said in his post) is you need to be aware of the rules and laws in your area so you can be accurate in your report. I would always insist (nicely) on seeing a rule in writing from the jurisdictions if you have a question about it. Inspectors or other AHJ's (authorities having jurisdiction) cannot just make up a rule and impose it on people without something to back up what they are saying.

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. . . Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.

I don't believe you. Do you have any documentation?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Check with local jurisdiction & Electricians. Rarely do you see #14 for outlets in new builds. All that I have seen, are #12 on 20 amp circuits. Lighting always on 15amp, most running #14. Problem is, I can back up my words by local code inspectors, and Electricians, along with NEC.

I just inspected a new construction home yesterday. Lots of receptacle outlets wired with #14.

Lots of receptacle outlets are sold out there with stab back connections that will *only* accept #14 wire.

If you can back up your words with the NEC, please do. What section prohibits #14 on a circuit with receptacle outlets?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

By the NEC, Back stabbing is illegal, and jurisdiction inspectors will fail the who place if outlets are Backstabbed. Only ones that can, are GFCI & Commercial grade outlets, which have a plate inside that can be screwed down to grab the wire. Those are not considered "Back Stab" type outlets.
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I've called 3 cities and 1 county this afternnon. So far I've only gotten one answer and that is from O'Fallon, IL. They only allow #12 per city ordinance: The below section is from theie web page. See section 150.09 (B) (2)

I came back and shortened the below section, if anyone once to see the entire ordinance e-mail me.

150.09 ELECTRICAL CODE AMENDMENTS.

The Electrical Code is hereby amended as follows:

(A) Section 90-4 is hereby amended by adding thereto the following provisions:

"The Code Enforcement Section of the Planning and Zoning Department of the City of O'Fallon, Illinois and the duly appointed Code Official of the City of O'Fallon, Illinois and authorized designees (individually a "code official" and together, the "code officials") that are hereby authorized and designated to carry out the enforcement provisions of this code.

Any person affected by a decision of a code official or a notice or order lawfully issued under this code shall have the right of appeal to the Builders Grievance Committee, established by section 121.0 of the Building Code, which shall additionally govern the grounds and regulate the procedures for such appeals."

(B) The following additional regulations and standards are hereby adopted as supplementary and in addition to the requirements of the Electrical Code and are hereby incorporated as if fully set forth therein.

(1) No other electrical conductor other than copper shall be used in the City other than by the utility company in its service supply lines.

(2) Branch circuits shall be at least Number 12 gauge wire, except as follows:

Control wire, as permitted by the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70; provided that this exception shall not be construed to include switch circuits or legs exceeding fifty (50) volts.

(Ord. 3302, passed 12-6-04; Am. Ord. 3336, passed 5-2-05; Am. Ord. 3398, passed 12-5-05)

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By the NEC, Back stabbing is illegal, and jurisdiction inspectors will fail the who place if outlets are Backstabbed. Only ones that can, are GFCI & Commercial grade outlets, which have a plate inside that can be screwed down to grab the wire. Those are not considered "Back Stab" type outlets.

Cite the NEC, chapter and verse and prove that it is a nationwide rule and not just a local rule. So far, you've failed to do that when requested.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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Mark has provided the sort of documentation we need for any of this to carry weight. As goofy as it is, I can see some downstate burg doing whatever it is they do, because someone in a position of authority pushed for it. Pretty stupid, but now we at least know what reality is. I know Chicago has mountains of amendments for the NEC, as it does for every other code; it's reasonable to think other places could too.

The backstabbing issue, OTOH, is a ridiculous statement. It could very well be that one of these municipalities also outlawed backstabbing (which I think is equally stupid), but it isn't banned in the NEC.

At least, nowhere I can find.

Mr. Greg, I think it's great that you're on board and in the mix, but you can't just make stuff up. Give us the code cites for your municipalities that outlaw backstabbing, or stop with the blanket statements.

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I've called 3 cities and 1 county this afternnon. So far I've only gotten one answer and that is from O'Fallon, IL. . . .

(1) No other electrical conductor other than copper shall be used in the City other than by the utility company in its service supply lines.

(2) Branch circuits shall be at least Number 12 gauge wire, except as follows: . . .

Thanks for the leg work. I appreciate it. So, in O'Fallon no one uses aluminum service cables? How odd.

I'd love to hear the story of how these two particular rules came about. I mean, given that millions of other electrical installations across the country are doing just fine with aluminum service conductors and large appliance circuits and even with (gasp!) #14 branch circuit conductors.

In their building code, does O'Fallon require 2x8 stud walls made only from Douglas Fir?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

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. . . Most jurisdictions are going that route, to allow for not overloading the circuit, and to set a standard. With everything being used in homes these days, #14 should not even be on a circuit going to receptacles.

I don't believe you. Do you have any documentation?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Check with local jurisdiction & Electricians. Rarely do you see #14 for outlets in new builds. All that I have seen, are #12 on 20 amp circuits. Lighting always on 15amp, most running #14. Problem is, I can back up my words by local code inspectors, and Electricians, along with NEC.

I just inspected a new construction home yesterday. Lots of receptacle outlets wired with #14.

Lots of receptacle outlets are sold out there with stab back connections that will *only* accept #14 wire.

If you can back up your words with the NEC, please do. What section prohibits #14 on a circuit with receptacle outlets?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

By the NEC, Back stabbing is illegal, and jurisdiction inspectors will fail the who place if outlets are Backstabbed. Only ones that can, are GFCI & Commercial grade outlets, which have a plate inside that can be screwed down to grab the wire. Those are not considered "Back Stab" type outlets.

Greg, this is starting to get comical. If there are local rules in your area that prohibit these things, please produce them. If you think that these things are actually part of the NEC, please cite the article numbers.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

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I would love to see the local ordinances that are more restrictive to see if they were actually legally adopted. I would love to see any of these requirements in writing.

In our area, there is one municipality that does not allow NM in any commercial structure and has not since the inception of NM cable. Another municipality has special conduit requirements in its "fire district". That is about it.

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I would love to see the local ordinances that are more restrictive to see if they were actually legally adopted. I would love to see any of these requirements in writing.

In our area, there is one municipality that does not allow NM in any commercial structure and has not since the inception of NM cable. Another municipality has special conduit requirements in its "fire district". That is about it.

Here is the link to the O'Fallon, IL code. scroll down to section 150.09.

I expect calls back from the other townships Monday Morning.

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/ ... 3.0#LPHit1

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  • 2 weeks later...
Check with local jurisdiction & Electricians. Rarely do you see #14 for outlets in new builds. All that I have seen, are #12 on 20 amp circuits. Lighting always on 15amp, most running #14. Problem is, I can back up my words by local code inspectors, and Electricians, along with NEC.

There is NO WAY you are going to back this up with the NEC, because it is NOT there. And luckily my local AHJ's are not the same as yours.

You are in Chicago. We all know Chicago lives by it's own rules. There is NO NEC rule, present or proposed, that disallows #14 for general receptacle circuits.

The replies from Jim, Chad, hausdok, and others are completely correct. There is nothing wrong with receptacles on 15A circuits.

The arguments you present simply don't hold water.

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