Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 *Hot tub installed outdoors. *50A GFCI breaker in main panel inside the home. *6/3 NM runs inside the home and terminated inside a properly placed disconnect within site of the hot tub. *From the disco 6/3 UF is properly protected and runs to the hot tub. All wiring is correct and the hot tub functions. Is there a problem with this install? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 How far away is the outside disconnect from the hot tub? Also is it a three wire older hot tub or a new one Four wire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Given only the facts that were stated, I don't see an issue. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 How far away is the outside disconnect from the hot tub? Also is it a three wire older hot tub or a new one Four wire? Disconnect is 7 feet from the hot tub so not an issue. It is a newer 4 wire being fed by a 4 wire so not an issue. Where is the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Would 680.21(A)(1) apply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 No bath salts? Smoodge on the control module? Motor housing not bonded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Not a bonding issue either. Look at 680.21(A) (1) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Is there a GFCI protected 120V outlet at 10-20' from the tub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Is there a GFCI protected 120V outlet at 10-20' from the tub? Yes, This is not where I am going with this one. See my code references above. The answer is with the information that was provided, not what was not provided. Good thinking though Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Would 680.21(A)(1) apply? 680.21 (A)(1) certainly does seem to apply. I didn't know that type Underground Feeder (UF) cable was not permitted for this application. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Not a bonding issue either. Look at 680.21(A) (1) For those who don't have an NEC handy, here's what it says: 680.21 Motors. (A) Wiring Methods. (1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK, now that I have your attention, lets break this down. What run is in violation?: 1) The NM from the main panel to the disconnect 2) The UF from the disco to the hot tub 3) Both runs We have to determine what the "branch circuit" is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I thought you said in the first post that "all wiring is correct"....(?). I still think it's smoodge on the control module. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Only the UF cable between the disconnect and the hot tub is in violation. 680.42 © permits NM within the dwelling to be used. As the wiring method from the disconnect to the tub is not 'cord & plug' connected, yet measures over 6', 680.21 (A) (1) applies to that particular run of wiring. FYI: 680.42 © Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with the one family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating and control loads that are part of a self contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly..... NEC 2008 Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 You got it Marc. Good research. This actually came up during a code inspection of a hot tub. At first they ran 8/3NM to the disco then 8/3UF from the disco to the hot tub. I failed the installation because it was a 50A circuit on a 50A OCPD and told them that they need to run 6/3 and that they need to run THWN from the disco which at that point they can use 8 awg copper due to the rating of THWN. When I went back, they changed the NM inside the house to 6/3 but used 6/3 UF from the disco to the hot tub in conduit. The electricians have been arguing with me on every part of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm still wondering about the "all wiring is correct" in #1........(?)...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm still wondering about the "all wiring is correct" in #1........(?)...... That just means that everything is hooked up correctly as far as grounds, hots and neutrals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bain Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm still wondering about the "all wiring is correct" in #1........(?)...... I'm still trying to figure out how the disco is germane to the question. Are there clearance requirements between hot tubs and mirror balls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm still wondering about the "all wiring is correct" in #1........(?)...... I'm still trying to figure out how the disco is germane to the question. Are there clearance requirements between hot tubs and mirror balls? Who said it was germane? A question about the disco was answered. At least you learned something today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 How far away is the outside disconnect from the hot tub? Also is it a three wire older hot tub or a new one Four wire? Disconnect is 7 feet from the hot tub so not an issue. It is a newer 4 wire being fed by a 4 wire so not an issue. Where is the issue? You wrote before 3 wire. and the fact that it is seven feet still makes it a problem. Also when asking trick questions you might include the install date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Kurt's just complaining 'cuz he doesn't know what NM or UF is. . . . I don't think it was a trick question at all. He stated everything exactly the way it was - probably exactly what you would see if you were at the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Remas Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Erik, 7 feet for a hot tub disco is code compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 To a large degree, Randy's right. I never see the stuff you're talking about. The only thing I see is conduit in all it's forms. This NM stuff has me baffled. So let me get this straight........the problem is UF in conduit(?). THWN is correct(?). Would THHN be OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Erik, 7 feet for a hot tub disco is code compliant. So 680.41 does not apply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bain Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I'm still wondering about the "all wiring is correct" in #1........(?)...... I'm still trying to figure out how the disco is germane to the question. Are there clearance requirements between hot tubs and mirror balls? Who said it was germane? A question about the disco was answered. At least you learned something today. I suppose it'll always be a fact of life that some people just don't get me . . . As far as learning something today, I'm always up for that, however I had firsthand experience with a similar situation last Spring. My oldest friend installed a swimming pool and the electrical inspector wouldn't sign off on the job due to issues that have been raised in this thread. The electrician used the, "I've always done it this way defense," but ultimately chomped on the bullet and reworked things so they were compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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