Corners

That's what got me thinking about the cold water. Vapor diffusion is a slow process, especially in new homes (vapor barrier, vinyl siding, etc…). Therefore, the heated pipe would add heat and not moisture, thus no change in dew point. If hot water were dumped down the drain, the drain would not stay hot for long, not allowing much time for vapor to pass into the wall cavity by diffusion (there would be no standing water in the pipe, and the specific heat of PVC is quite low in comparison to water, plus a lower density). Plus, the RH in the winter is already very low, and heating would only decrease it further, so where is the moisture to come from in the winter with a vapor barrier installed? Cold water in the pipe lower than the dew point in the summer would cause the insulation to become saturated if condensation occurred. Once the condensation has occurred in the wall, the vapor would be pretty well trapped between the vapor barrier and vinyl siding. That’s what I’m seeing in the pictures is the entire cavity with mold; the moisture has spread throughout the cavity via insulation osmosis. I think we all can say that the wall needs to be properly insulated, especially around the drain pipe. I’ll just reiterate my stance and be sure to insulate behind the drain pipe on the exterior facing portion of the pipe with foam. Oh, and fix that worthless stud.

Do you have any pics of the property?

First off, in the first picture, you need to add another stud next to the one that has almost been completely notched out by the drain piping. How dare they put all that wood in the plumber's way. [] What I'm wondering is if the back side of the drain line was insulated. I'm guessing that there was no insulation between the exterior and the drain line. Almost as if insulation was placed over the drain, providing no insulation behind. That would cause condensation to form on the pipe on the back side when COLD water was put down the drain in the summer. (Hot water would add heat, thus decreasing RH). I'd say, be sure to insulate completely around the pipe to prevent condensation. Maybe use foam.

Oh, I didn't say it wouldn't help. 10% sounds about right, though on the high side (the walls are insulated). Also, one of those documents states "up to 10%" loss through the floors. The best would be if the floor was insulated. However, If you can insulate the floor and decrease the maximum 10% down to say 5%, that would save you $5 per month on a $100 heating bill. Is that worth it? Well, maybe. All I'm saying is that it may not give you the results you want. Personally, I'd only insulate it if my feet were cold (which I did in my old house).

Is the area you are looking in a heated climate? As others have said, get rid of the water first. Knowing that the majority of your heat loss is out the roof, insulating the floor may not give you the results you are after, especially if the walls are insulated. If you do want to insulate, I say insulate with no vapor barrier.

Pretty good. Engineering is heavily influenced by lessons learned (just like any code book, IRC, IBC, ASHRAE, NFPA, B31.1, B31.3, etc...). Yes, failures have occurred in the past, but these failures are a part of our learning as human beings and make us smarter in the long run. Thank god for engineers (it is almost St Patrick’s day you know; the patron Saint of Engineers). Actually, engineers have developed all the codes and standard practices inspectors follow. It’s the engineer’s broad based technical education that is the building blocks of progress of humans.

One more chapter in the drama, the builder is billing the insulator for the fix. I bet this insulator loves me. Everyone loves being told they're wrong. [] I seriously wonder how many homes this insulator has done incorrectly in this area? I'm betting hundreds, and every other home in my neighborhood thus far.

Well, after almost 3 weeks, the builder is finally admitting defeat, especially since I got the city engineer involved. [] I "told" on them. The city engineer asked for documentation and any technical reason for the backwards installations, and while they said they had it, they could not produce any. So, I talked to the builder today and he said, "well, I guess we're going to tear out the drywall and do the patch work...". Almost as if he's doing me a favor. Oh well. I won. [] Thanks everyone for your input.

Glad to hear it Kurt. I too love a good debate. As the saying goes, mud wrestling with a pig is like arguing with an engineer; sooner or later you'll realize the pig likes it. (Truth be known, I didn't answer some of your questions because I felt the conversation was going south...)

While I've never made the claim to disagree, this is exactly what I have yet to start collecting fees for my services as a home inspector. I want experience. Others may just jump out of the box not knowing what they’ve doing (I live in a state that does not require any HI licensing), but I want to know exactly what’s going on. I have certain personally created goals that I want to meet before I start. That’s just how I feel. The only point I was making that a PE, or any engineer has a better platform to build experience on. That's all. Is that really that crazy of a take on this subject? Most people have this misconception that, take a structural engineer for example, only take classes on structures, which is not true at all. The core engineering curriculum for most any discipline includes classes in fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, electrical circuits, and statics. It's not that a engineer is better than anyone else, it's that they pick up on things much quicker than others (well, those who paid attention in school that is []) Are we all still friends? []

Now hold on everyone. This was not to turn into a pissing match. While I've given my opinion (I a fully knew it wasn't going to be popular), I've also stated that I lack the knowledge to ethically (IMO) take someone's money for my services. I've also stated that there is no replacement for experience. If some of you think that I'm trying to "show off", or have a "chip on my shoulder", you are not reading me correctly. The reason I'm here is to learn. Not from "lesser souls", but from more experienced inspectors. I was only giving my OPINION. I've even stated that I think the PE license is too easy to keep and hold. So, for those of you who think I'm trying to be better than anyone, ask yourself this; why am I here asking questions if I have all the answers? Now on the other hand, I’m sure I can offer others here some good advice as well, as long as those “experiencedâ€

I see you had to use dictionary.com’s definition to find out what psychrometrics is. (Oh, and there was a typo in my first response; it's psychrometrics, not psychometrics.) [] However, while your definition is not “wrongâ€

Yeah, homes rarely have air conditioners and boilers, and knowledge of psychometrics is worthless. []

FYI, a degree in petroleum engineering requires...Calculus 1,2,&3, Chemistry 1 & 2, Material and Energy Balance, Physics 1 & 2, Statics, Thermodynamics, Geology, Diff Eq, Strength of Materials, Momentum Transfer, Electrical Circuits, and Heat Transfer. And these are all the "core" classes. Every one of those classes are applicable to home inspections. His PE status should be advertised, and is rightly earned.

True. While I feel I more than have more than the required technical knowledge to perform a competent home inspection, I don't think I have the experience (at least my personal opinion) of what it take to actually take someone's money for my work (It’d probably take me 6 hours to finish). I still need a lot more studying, and several more "practice" inspections before I'm ready to go. The exam is still too easy.

I just took the exam. Scored an 84. IMO, the exam is too easy. It only took 25 mins. I'm still researching/learning/gathering info, and have yet to take an HI training course (starts in April) and I have only done 3 HI's (non-pay practice inspections). I am an ME, so maybe that's it, but I thought the test was very easy. The only questions I had troubles with were vocabulary in nature. There should be more calculations to prove mathematical competency. Try to make the exam have a pass rate around 60%-65%.

Very good comments all. I just have a different view on the subject, and I'm sure it contains no bias []. Even with a 65% first time pass rate, and a 32% second+ tries to pass the PE exam, I even think it’s too easy to get/keep your PE license, so I’m kinda out there. I just think the bar should be set high in technical professions, which home inspections are becoming. I think we all agree that some minimum standards need to be set. Yes, there is no replacement for experience. However, experience coupled with a technical education background is far superior. I could go for some licensing requirements that would have experience as a replacement for education. Like, make the requirements: 1) PE license, 40 hours home inspector training, 50 home inspections, and pass a written home inspector’s test. Or 2) 4 year Bachelor’s degree in science, 40 hours home inspector training, 100 home inspections, and pass a written home inspection. Or 3) 80 hours home inspector training, 100 home inspections, and pass a written home inspection exam. Like others have said, the state’s board of technical professions should conduct the licensing for HI’s. For example, here is the Kansas State Board of Technical Professions. http://www.accesskansas.org/ksbtp/ They keep track of license for architect, engineers, landscape architects, land surveyors, and geologists. Why not add property inspectors to that list?

You have to draw the line somewhere, and a licensed professional engineer is the best way to assure that. Of the few houses I purchased, I required a PE inspect my home. There was just no other way, IMO. I guess you can look at it this way. If you’re sick, do you want to see the nurse or the doctor? Sure, the nurse may be fully capable of diagnosing routine illnesses or have several years experience as a competent nurse, but wouldn’t you rather see the doctor? If someone is going to state, “I see damage, so have this _______ inspected by a professional engineerâ€

That's how I read the code. Reading in context, M1501.1 states, "...Flexible transitions ducts used to connect the dryer to the exhaust duct system shall be limited to single lengths, not to exceed 8 feet in length...Transition ducts shall not be concealed within the construction." Therefore, the duct "to connect the dryer to the exhaust duct system" is the "flexible transitions duct", or transition duct. However, one can make the argument that since the 25 equivalent maximum length dryer duct includes an allowed 8 ft transition duct, if a shorter transition duct were used, the equivalent length of 25 ft could be increased by the amount of the transition duct less than 8 ft. It's all about the DP. DP is DP and it doesn’t matter what form it comes in.

At a minimum, HELL YES. Not to start a flame war, but personally, I believe that inspectors collecting money for their technical services should hold a professional engineer's license. And to take this up another notch, not to knock on all the other licensed PE's, but not only should you have an ABET accredited engineering degree and 4 years professional experience under a PE, I think you need to retake the NCEES PE exam every 4 years to hold your PE license. But, I guess I’m a hardass like that. To be a good in a technical background, you need education and/or experience. Both is better.

Good info, Jim. Thanks. In this light, greenboard should be installed over a vapor barrier, and should not be used in a shower or tub applications when tiled. Cement board should be used in tile applications. Now, how about the use of a vapor retarder with cement board?

hausdok, Yes, and I appreciate the link. I sent that to the builder. That paper said everything I knew and thought about vapor retarders. However, it does not address green board (water resistant gypsum), and/or tile installation. This is where I am a little lost. Maybe I'm not being clear. Here's the 3 pieces of the puzzle I know: 1) Currently, the insulation is installed with the facing towards the exterior. 2) The IRC R318.1 and other documentation state that the vapor barrier needs to be installed on the warm in winter side of the wall. 3) The green board manufacturer, USG, states that a vapor barrier is NOT to be installed behind it. This is confirmed in IRC R702.4.2 and R702.4.3, which states, "Water-resistant gypsum board shall not be installed over a vapor retarder in a shower or tub compartment....Water-resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used in the following locations: 1. Over a vapor retarder in a shower or bathtub compartment. 2. Where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity. So I now ask, what is the correct insulation installation of a wall partially covered in greenboard, and partially covered in regular gypsum board? I’m now inclined to say, there should be no vapor barrier behind the greenboard, and the current installation of the facing on the exterior side of the wall should be removed. Basically, tear down the drywall, rip out the backwards faced insulation, replace it with unfaced insulation, and use greenboard over all unfaced insulation with a good water resistant paint. What do you think?

Still doesn't help me. I already know everything you're saying. What I'm wanting to know now is how a VAPOR retarder (in the states, we spell it VAPOR; check the IRC []) is (or isn't) supposed to be installed with green board. Right now, the builder/insulator is telling me that the correct installation is to install the insulating with the facing towards the exterior. I'm not buying this. I think this creates a double vapor barrier. Any thoughts?

How about the insulation/vapor retarder in conjunction with the green board?

Ok. Now I need help, as I am confused. Everyone saw the insulation installed in the first pic, right? Well, here's what it looks like with the drywall up. They've installed "green board" over most (not all) of the backwards insulation. Now what? I called UGS about the green board, and it is NOT to be installed over a vapor barrier. They said if the insulation is faced, that the faced insulation needs to be cut to allow moisture to pass. If this is done, there really is no vapor barrier, other than painting with a low permeability paint (green board has a permeability of 30.2). Question, if the backwards installed insulation facing is not cut, is that a double vapor barrier on that wall? If so, what is the correct installation in this application? Please help. Download Attachment: Drywall Up.jpg 44.88 KB