mgbinspect

In all honesty, when I started the thread I was really a bit in Jim's camp as far as the "tripping hazard" goes. You'd have to work pretty hard at it. My bigger concern was that when I look at that setup, I see fragility, and I begin to immediately imagine some far fetched, yet possible scenarios based upon the equation: gas + fragility + blunt force = disaster. I mean, speaking of fireplace tools, what if one falls over and that solid heavy steel handle lands squarely on the aluminum tube at the fitting. Or, a direct hit from the mantle with the gold plated and engraved railroad tie that CSX gave you when you retired. Or what if the grand son is whacking the holy h@ll out of that tube with your favorite 2 iron, two seconds before you reach him to bust his butt for it. Or, the kid, for whatever reason, decides that that silver tube is just the coolest thing to saw on with the little pruning saw you left out on the front porch, because it's actually working! Look at all those pretty bits of silver fly as I saw. Wheee... The fact is, I just plain don't like this setup and don't really need any reference to back it up. We all know that If a freak disaster can be imagined, it CAN happen. This all touches on one of my pet peeves: Suddenly a few years ago, it became vogue for guys to strain at gnats with code, somewhat as if it were a religion and great gift to be able to spew the stuff - the very threshold to Nirvana, and yet swallow camels because it wasn't a code issue. Frankly, I think one of many necessary skills a home inspector better possess is the ability to imagine what can possibly happen and act on such intuitions. I sometimes think that some HIs have left the real world to wade through a sea of codes, when codes are usually based upon real world past disasters. That being said, I DO plan to reference code now, but some guys become a bit too robotic regarding code only to mindlessly walk past real life red flags.

Isn't that an igniter? It's looks like possibly the two electrodes that a spark jumps between to ignite the pilot.

Interesting. I'll make it a habit. It just never really occured to me that anything could everbe profoundly wrong in there. If any of the three main lines aren't hooked up, things test crazy anyway. I remember once a meter wasn't pushed fully in so only one hot side made contact. In that case I turned on the oven and lights were coming on all over the house (current back-feeding through the dead oven circuit. That was funny. So, I am guessing that the only things that won't manifest themself without a look see is a bad overheating connection or a bad or missing ground to a rod? Am I correct, or are there other conditions that won't manifest themself without viewing it?

Thanks Douglas! You've brought a lot of things to light that I would have never figured out. That's the true beauty of the TIJ brain-trust. I hope I can return the favor someday somehow. Mike PS. If anyone would like the high resolution photo sent to them so they can zoom in and follow along with Doug's assessment, shoot me your e-mail and I'm happy to send it on.

Thanks again, Douglas. I've seen a ton of generator panels and about 40% of the time they're done badly. But, I've never seen anything like this. I've sent you the third photo so you can zoom in to confirm your suspicion that the bonding jumper is missing. Kindly let me know here what you conclude. Thanks in advance for your assistance.

I made it out there and got the boxes opened. Click to Enlarge 60.8 KB There are main disconnect switches inside each. They are identical. A toggle switch to turn off the AT feature is beside the main breaker. Click to Enlarge 59.5 KB Click to Enlarge 99.23 KB Click to Enlarge 77.13 KB Here are the the most significant labels: Click to Enlarge 31.96 KB Click to Enlarge 26.19 KB Click to Enlarge 44.35 KB Click to Enlarge 53.84 KB I drove the perimeter of the property peering into the woods for any signs of a generator and scanned the outside of the home for any propane lines that might have been abandoned or roughed in for a generator, to no avail.

Me too. If it can compress, deteriorate or be eaten, I don't like it.

This thread is a spin-off of Phantom Generator. The main reason I didn't try to force the apparently siezed thumb-crews for the Automatic Transfer boxes was I didn't really expect to find anything revealing, and the screws could easily be snapped off. This all causes me to wonder, though. When a breaker panel is inside and the main diconnect is outside, do you open the outside main disconnect to inspect the wiring? I don't (routinely). I have on a few occassions but it isn't my habit. So I find myself wondering: Do you? If so, Why? Has it ever paid off - have you found anything?

Thank you Douglas. That was helpful. I haven't completed this report yet, and in light of all of the developing info and insights, I'm really tempted to go back out and get the ATs open. It's a vacant foreclosure, so it's not a problem. I believe I'll do that in the morning, so stay tuned and we'll see what gives.

That's why I hang out here. Always more to learn. Wasn't it Jack Nicholson that said, "You make me want to be a better home inspector." ? All kidding aside, hey, anyone that thinks there won't always be room for improvement, is already on a downhill slope. That's a fact. I like teaching when I can and learning 24/7 and I appreciate the part you and the rest of the TIJ folk play in the process. I believe my mind was freed up of a bit of folklore in this thread, and I'm glad of it. I'm still working on saying and sweating over writing the word "code". It's going to take some time, but I'll get there.

Dale Duffy made it up. John Bowman is the "Director". Their address is a UPS store. Nuff said. That's the guy, Dale Duffy. When I got the LinkedIn invite, I was a bit encouraged, but when I visited the web site, it wasn't very impressive. The search goes on...

Richard, in keeping with the manuals: Thanks a lot. That was very helpful. Muchos gracias, Eso era provechoso. The bottom line for me is 1. they need to find out from the seller, who is also the home builder, what they've got here and more importantly, in an emergency, how do you shut it down in a coule of throws?

That certainly seems to be the beast.

Somehow, whenever Kurt is done, I find myself feeling so completely inadequate... [:-fight] I'm never quite certain if he's speaking of "us yahoos" or "other even more inferior yahoos" [:-tophat] I thought class was dismissed..

Yeah, Bain, at the time, it didn't enter my mind I would see much mor than wire connections, if I had, so when the thumbscrews woulddn't turn I didn't press the issue. Plus they weren't very hefty screws so I thought it easy to accidentally snap on off. Now on the way home, I realized that what I didn't do and should have is look up under the covers and see if the bottom of the box was cut out to accomodate a generator cord with the cover closed. Too late now, but I surely should have done that. I've never seen an entire home generator ready. Usually it's a sub panel with selected circuits.

Marc, the edge of the box that is immediately to the left of the two transfer switches is the meter base. Any way I look at it, there's no single throw disconnects for the two sub-panels. It's screwy. I'll be checking out your links shortly Richard.

I received an invite from them via LinedIn and joined into the network - no charge. I was disappointed to realize through visiting the web that there aren't but a handful of members, so it's in fledgling stage. It would be nice if there was a good association with a library, and forum, etc. I did ask Mike O about a Forum here on Commercial Building Inspections, and he said it could happen in five minutes. I suppose it would just need a moderator or two. Probably 50% of my masonry foreman days was working on schools, prisons, warehouses, strip shopping centers, etc. My steel detailing days were completely ornamental and light commercial steel - towers, mezzanines within warehouses, etc. During slow times we did some formed and reinforced concrete foundations for office buildings. And we were a rep for Butler (I believe) metal buildings. I took the commercial building inspection course at ITA, about three years ago, which simply confirmed that I know almost everything they're teaching. I'd be fine on structure and exterior, except (as you know), I need to catch up on flat roofing materials. Where I'm never quite comfortable is 3-phase service, although I can hobble along. (My biggest fear with 3-phase stuff is that it will definitely kill ya! [:-bigeyes One of my friends, who is an electrician for a large manufacturing plant got lit one time accidentally and he said it felt like he was literally being pulled right into the panel or connection. He said he'd never experienced such a close call and never wants to again.) I've opened up the systems before, but lways feel that I was being stupid. I think one definitely need to be a whole lot more careful (maybe rated gloves and proper shoes) with 3-phase. And I don't know much about specialized equipment, such as transformers, stuff uniquely for highrise buildings, restaurant kitchens and fire arresting systems, etc. And, I've never done a project big enough to warrant getting together a team of consultants and writing a report the size of a book complete with future maintenance and operating cost projections, but Les apparently has... [:-eyebrow So, I really haven't felt that I'd be a very competent moderator. I've really never done anything larger than mom and pop restaurants, and small office buildings and warehouses.

OK, pictures and additional notes have been added to the original post. Class is in session... I can only guess that had I been able to get one of the covers up, I'd have found a generator hook up. But, that means that every circuit in this entire 6400 square foot home is generator ready.

In a bit. still in the field.

Well, this is a first for me: I'm looking at two, side by side, Siemens 200 AMP breaker panels in the garage. There is no main breaker in either panel. Click to Enlarge 72.55 KB Behind these panels on the outside wall are two side by side Automatic Transfer Switch Boxes. Click to Enlarge 40.72 KB Yet, there is no generator or apparent hookup for a future generator. There isn't even the slightest indication there ever was a generator. Each of the transfer switch boxes had covers hinged at the top and secured at the bottom with thumb-screws that were rusted fast to the box. I suppose they could have lifted up to reveal a generator plug in each box, but I've never seen a transfer switch built in to the hookup. The panels are setup to be subs, with segregated neutals and grounds. Even if the Transfer switch boxes to have plugs, what about main disconnects? I'm stumped. Any insights?

It was definitely good for me - and on a Friday, no less, with the weekend ahead to ponder some tacking over a extra dirty martini... Shaken, not stirred 007. Indeed.. Is there any other way? Have an outstanding weekend gentlemen and friends - every one of you. Class dismissed. [:-graduat

It was definitely good for me - and on a Friday, no less, with the weekend ahead to ponder some tacking over a extra dirty martini...

I would respond to the dipshit attorney by demanding that if they cite a law, then I am going to demand that they know all the law on everything relating to human interaction, and to apply it in any conversation we are having on any topic. That old idea has been flogged forever by HI's everywhere, and I've yet to find an attorney that gives it the slightest bit of credence. What the idea is saying, both in effect and in fact, is that we are not allowed to use reference material for our opinions. None of them, not a one. If we do, then we have to use reference material for any utterance related to our job. Why? Because everything we do or say goes to the building code in one way or another. I don't like that idea, and am reasonably sure it has no basis in anything other than HI folklore. Bless you sir. Sometimes, once I've set a course, it remains set in stone, whether reasonable or not. [:-snorkel

While I've possibly done a poor job at expressing the concern, we're on the same page. I'm still operating on an old promise from attorneys, which basically suggests: "If you site code, we're going to feel free to demand that you know ALL code - if you apply it here, you better not miss it anywhere else in the house, either." I've never raised my reluctance to include code in my reports, because I'm reasonably confident there are threads a mile long on this argument already.

In this case, me especially.