Sodapop

Also posted some info regarding neutral/ground screw terminals for Cutler Hammer (Eaton) at this link.

Noticed the panel is Square D Homeline. This is what Square D says about more than one neutral/ground under the same screw. Download Attachment: Multiple Neutrals Under Termination.pdf 62.25 KB

This is what Cutler Hammer (Eaton) has to say about wires under neutral/ground screw terminations. NOTE: The file with FRONT describes the panel types and the file with BACK describes how the terminations apply to those panels. Download Attachment: 11_BACK[1].pdf 11.02 KB Download Attachment: 11_FRONT[1].pdf 15.04 KB Download Attachment: 19_BACK[1].pdf 11.02 KB Download Attachment: 19_FRONT[1].pdf 15.04 KB Download Attachment: 20_BACK[1].pdf 11.02 KB Download Attachment: 20_FRONT[1].pdf 15.03 KB Download Attachment: 21_BACK[1].pdf 11.39 KB Download Attachment: 21_FRONT[1].pdf 15.24 KB

Must be nice. We get turned down without the beneift of a code reference.

This is what Square D says about multiple wires under neutral termination. Download Attachment: Multiple Neutrals Under Termination.pdf 62.25 KB

Thanks Erby. Got your e-mail. Would like to meet with sometime but would have to be on a Saturday. Not a coffee drinker but you can buy me a Pepsi.

Ledgibly - No I'm not kidding. See NEC 2008 408.4 Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification Why would you want to change use of something if the panel circuits are labeled? And if you do, you can always create your own. Most panel directories marked in pencil that I have seen have faded or gotten smudged. One local AHJ, last time I checked, insists that the panel directories (in residential) be marked in pen.

In viewing the picture in close up it appeared that the ground wire had been cut. After another viewing, it does appear that the wirenuts have been removed. My error. My using the word "fault" was also incorrect. Regarding the romex romex connector, I have seen both as in your quote. Regarding the dishwasher cord, I wasn't saying that my way was the proper way. I simply stated that is normally how it's done around here. That is my preferred method. And lastly: Regarding the wirenut: I was mainly refering to solid copper. In my experience, if you don't twist the wires together you can't get a solid connection and the wires work loose, arc. I have seen this too many times in the field and IMHO is due to poor workmanship. No harm done. Thanks for dissecting my post. I'll never be too old to learn.

It's not that simple. Even if the panel label doesn't include a particular breaker, that breaker can still be used in that panel if the breaker is listed for use with that panel. (Oy! What a sentence!) That's what classified breakers are all about. - Jim Katen, Oregon I agree. In my experience, I have seen and have tried to use breakers that were listed for a particular panel. When trying to install them I could never get a solid connection to the busbar. When using the original breaker I had no problem. In order to use the classified breaker, it would have to fit properly, this is not always the case. Use the original if at all possible.

I hope you'll find that we don't stereotype electricians in this forum. In my experience the electrical trade seems to have the highest percentage of competent members out there. There's certainly a greater number of competent electricians than there are framers, roofers, siding contractors, plumbers and -- gasp! -- home inspectors. - Jim Katen, Oregon Fair enough. [^]

I am no longer in business for myself and no longer on the residential side as an electrician. This is partly due the lacklustre housing market. While in operation of my business I did receive a few calls regarding FPE panels. Some panels I replaced simply due to a service upgrade. I have also done a simple panel change out. As far as a typical response, I would usually say I would be happy to come and take a look at it. Although there may not be any immediate signs at first, a little troublshooting can usually find the problem. I stated in another thread that I have an FPE panel in the house I'm renting. The only problem I have found myself is the inablility to find replacment breakers. As far as the homeowner is concerned, if they have a concern about the safety of their family with an FPE panel, I'm all for their feeling safe. Most homeowners would be happy to spend the money to feel safe in their own home. I don't think this is playing on the emotions of the homeowner however. Most of the homeowners I have dealt with were well-informed on the issue and simply wanted to change out the FPE panel. In some cases, the homeowners insurance covered all or most of the cost of a service upgrade or panel change out. The basis of the NEC and the NFPA is protection and safety from electrical and fire hazards. To me, this is what it is about, SAFETY. I lived through a house fire in 1981. Anyway John, I hope I answered your question.

Stewart, I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought here. Would you please elaborate your cut ground theory? The ground wire having been cut, with the neutral wires being burnt the fault had no were to go. The fault used the the only means available to it. The ground is intended as a safety measure. What would have happened if the grounded conductor had come loose and the ground not attached? By the way, where is the wirenut for the black wires? The romex connector may be too tight and might be pinching the neutral, causing an inabilty of the wire to carry the proper amount current. It looks like the dishwaher is hardwired. Common practice in my area is a switched receptacle under the sink. The DW is then connected with a 6' appliance cord if within reach. This serves as a disconnecting means as well. I am not a fan of hardwired DW's. If there is enough slack in the romex, I would cut back the wires and install it properly. I agree also that it more than likely would be a loose wirenut. More than likely the wires weren't twisted together. The installer simply used the wirenut. If the wires were just connected by the wirenut, the neutral wires could come loose and arc causing the burnt condition.

Wouldn't pass around here. Circuits usually aren't labeled until the final (plugs, switches and lights) is completed. Once there is a meter and the final is completed, I would check all circuits with a plug tester. Check lights to work properly. With a helper, starting in the kitchen label kitchen 20amp circuits by turning breakers on and off. Work your way through the 15amp circuits. Arc Fault circuits, if required, are easy to label. Label your 240volt items and you are done. But please print in ink and print ledgibly.

Violation of NEC 2008 406.4(E)

I think you mean 240.24(E) Not Located In Bathrooms It refers to ANY type of Panel. Either the panel or the bathroom must be moved.

This probably wouldn't have happened if the ground wire had not ben cut. Therin lies your problem.

You stated that the electrician rewired the house. When he rewired the house, did he install a new panel or did he just use the old one? From the second photo it appears that the panel is an older Cutler-Hammer panel. The breakers look older than newer breakers. I won't mention the two violations at the breaker. The white wire isn't reidentified as a hot. There are more than one wire under the breaker terminal. That model of CH doesn't allow that to my knowledge. When I started doing electric 15 years ago, more than one ungrounded conductor under a terminal was common practice. Our inspectors passed the install. Since, most of the contractors I have worked for and when I worked for myself, have done away with the practice. It was common to see no more than two wires under the terminal. Usually the ground wire and the neutral of the same circuit. I Do Not agree with putting more than one wire under the smae terminal if they are of different gauges. That is usually when you find the arcing. Manufacturers years ago never gave enough room or terminals to do your connections. The space you often have to make upa panel is often negligible. Manufacturers have offered better products as of late, I am a Square D fan myself. On another note: Please don't stereotype electricians. I know, there are bad ones out there. I've seen them myself. But let's be fair.

If the panel states "Siemens breakers only" then I would change them out. Even if Siemens now makes them did they make them when that particular panel was made? If the Challenger breaker does not have Siemens on the label, then IMHO, the Challenger breaker is not LISTED for that panel and they should be replaced.

Thanks for the welcome Mike. I have read that forum thread and have seen the documentation. Although , I do not necessarily agree with their findings, that is how it is at this time. Not all electricians agree on FPE panels. In the house I'm renting I happen to have a FPE panel. Although I am not happy with the panel, it works and haven't had any problems with it other that not being able to find a breaker to add a circuit. I have previously told customers of mine, after they have expressed concerns over their FPE panel, that I could upgrade or change their panel and service. I had a lady that had a 240 volt dryer breaker go bad. The cost of the breaker alone was around $250 at that time. She already had a 200 Amp service so I was able to upgrade her panel for $500. The cost was easy for handle as she felt the safety factor was in her best interest. In some instances, I've changed out FPE panels on the insurance companies demand. Anyway, as I said. Although I do not necessarily agree with their findings, if it makes the homeowner feel safer to get rid of the FPE that's what Electricians should be concerned with.

NEC 2008 11012(A) Unused openings Unused openings, other than those intended for the operation of equipment, those intended for mounting purposes, or those permitted as part of the design for listed equipment, shall be closed to afford protection substantially equivalent to the wall of the equipment. .... (Italicized indicates change from 2005 NEC) These openings are not required to be covered. Usually the back of the panel is up against a wall. From the photo I take the opening to have a space behind the panel and not flush to a wall. Mounting the panel through the side screw holes into the stud is common practice in residential. You would typically use those holes when mounting the panel to a basement wall. Mounting of panels must also meet NEC 2008 314.23 Supports

Have been looking at this forum for a few days and have finally registered. First post. The cable supports in your picture I believe are the 3M brand. Other manufacturers produce them as well. I have have used these before and they are a labor saver. The cable clamp helps to meet NEC 2008 334.30 Securing and Supporting NM Cable. The basis for the cable clamp is also to meet the 1 1/4" requirement in NEC 2008 300.4(D) Sometimes it is almost impossible to meet these requirements, but these clamps are code compliant. Will try to post a link when I find one.