Umm.. Nobody was mean to mean, it was very shorthand very fast i had to go and had a few questions so I just described what I had seen and tried to leave it sort of open, I did a very bad job of it. My fault. No one needs to argue over me lol. I deleted the posts cause they were useless for any body to learn off of because I assume you all knew the answers, but my background. I started working for my uncle building when I was about 12 or 13.. however old I was in 6th grade. I haven't built in a number of years. I moved to Tahlequah Oklahoma, famous for their "Indian houses" built in a very primitive, not old but primitive style. This is not my opinion, but every opinion in town. My uncle was famous for being heavy duty on everything. If we built a block wall house, it was reinforced with #4 rebar, ladder bars between every row, and filled with 5k psi concrete. I have never built a "hiddey hole" as they are called here(storm room? safe room?) But from what i have seen, every block house we built is the same methods these storm rooms are built, aside from the ceiling and welding brackets inside concrete, although we built a few metal trusses inside of concrete for tensile strength any time it was a concrete balcony etc. without supporting columns beneath. I don't mean to rant, just trying to explain, sorry. Slabs for a driveway are not 3-1/2" thick or even 4" thick, but 6" thick minimum. Take that and apply it to digging footings for the slabs (if Anyone is near Dallas they will see how the slabs are poured here, I never knew any difference, but whats a soil test? soil tests are not conducted before any small commercial or any residential structures. The last building we built was 1600 sq foot, a small doctors office. The footings were one foot wide and 20" deep, or on the back where the ground was lower, it was almost 24" of solid concrete 1 foot thick with a brick ledge extending out wards 5-1/2" with an additional 20" of concrete. The 1600 sq ft building required somewhere between 50-60 yards monolithic pour. Fun with 2 man crew and a couple wives =) If you feel I'm ranting, let me know, I'm trying to figure out my boundaries here. =) Matt the typo king. EDIT: I also have this problem of typing about one topic, and mid-sentence I will start another without knowing it. Not when I talk, just when I type or write. I had a head injury about 2 years ago and my short term memory is not near as good ever since, this may have part to do with it.