PAbernathy

Basically it is imporant to know that piping related to the pool equipment CAN be within 5' of the pool....just not electrical lines and so on unrelated to the pool. The problem can come in with gradiants and so on near the pool and potential current imposed onto the pool system and all that jazz...more so the likelyhood someone will come in contact with the metal parts is the largest concern because we can control those factors. However, if the pool is properly bonded and installed correctly it lessens the issues...but does not remove them in the future. Now it is clear...they are not going to DIG up the pool....or move the service in this case so one thing that could be done is to ensure the electrical meter is enclosed and not able to come in contact with the metallic parts.....I see pools installed all the time ( I do alot of pools ) and while we pull permits for all of ours...many do not. Clearances can have exceptions based on the fact their is no clearance....many local AHJ's make allowances for clearances and make exceptions to many things.......The best suggestion would be to errect a barrier between the electrical equipment and the pool itself but just not sure how practicle it is in your case.

Jim, What I found is that depending on where you are in the country the GFCI's failed more than others because of surges imposed on the GFCI's and to be honest...failing the MOV of the GFCI itself. I also believe the newer advent of the UL943 goes along way to solving alot of the problems with older GFCI's, Many times these devices would simply fail and when they did they did so in the closed position and the receptacle worked but offered no GFCI protection....very misleading and unsafe and good to say the industry leaped to correct this problem. In the end the only effective way to keep devices and equipment safe from surges or high voltage inrush things like lightning is a whole house system....located at the panel itself. FYI- the " case potential " is a misnomer....but if it helps people sleep at night thats ok....not the intent of the EGC in the electrical system.

lol...I got ya Carl....well I for know exactly what a few beers and "Electricity" chat can evolve into...lol Basically I did want to comment about the EGC....( which I personally think should be renamed to EBC ) but thats just me....anyway I digress...... The function of the EGC is to ensure a fault current path back to aid in clearing a fault upon any metalic structure that may be energized...without that path you are relying on another path...be it the grounded conductor...which already has current upon it as the return path....so having a properly done EGC within a system is always safer......I will argue that until I am blue in the face.....now with that said...we see alot of appliances that have no EGC terminal at all on the equipment...why is that...well many times because of no metal parts exposed or double insulated cords and such.......but thats a whole different topic and I am always warned by the powers that be to NOT get overly technical so I wont..... But in my mind.....their are plenty of 2 wire and 3 wire systems........we as HI's see alot of older setups with only 2 conductors and no EGC all the time...yet they give the false impression of being upgraded or providing that fault current path back to aid in clearing a to case/metal enclosure ( for example ) fault.......anyway I don't want to harp on it but I hear it alot....all systems are grounded because they have the Neutral connection....BUT that is not the fault current path we are looking for when the EGC was introduced........and it was introduced for a reason... Dang...now I am rambling....see what you started Mike.. To Chris - The "CODE" is the minimal standard and meeting that standard makes it safe but not the safest it could be but you have to start somewhere...right. As for Safe....just remember it only takes 8-10MA to LOCK on and not let go.....and remember the smallest circuit in the dwelling is a 15A circuit......you do the math......electricity is dangerous no matter how you slice it.

Carl, Yes, always call out a "3" prong plug in a "2" wire setup......unless their is a GFCI involved in this circuit in question. Jim was so right ( and I was waiting for someone to say it ) that grounded or ungrounded near water is still the same safety concern. The elevated concern with 2 wire setups is no low impedence fault current path....so this is why their is an allowance in the NEC to protect a "3" prong receptacle placed on a "2" wire setup..if protected by GFCI.....to increase the safety aspect. I would be VERY interested in hearing from you about this seminar that caused confussion...it should not as it is cut and dry in my opinion on the safety aspects of the GFCI......at the nominal protection factor of 5MA which it will protect against personal injury....However it is important to know that not even GFCI's are perfect....grab a hold of the Neutral wire and be apart of the circuit and the GFCI wont help you much.....or grab between the ungrounded and grounded and see that the GFCI wont help you much so it is still a COMMON SENSE thing when still dealing with GFCI's...they are not failsafe devices. Education is so important....educate the client on GFCI's, their function as you do the walk around if you get the chance....sends a good message to the client and helps spread proper information on the products. FYI- Having a "3" prong receptacle on a "2" wire system sends the wrong message to the consumer that 1.) Electrical upgrades have been made when really they have not and 2.) Gives the client a false sense of additional safety by having a low impedence falut current path...which is simply not the case. Hope this helps.......

lol....well you can huddle around that 14-2 in the winter Les and still run that Compressor and Welder....for a brief time it may keep you WARM.....just warm your hands over that 14-2....

Basically you can have a 3-wire setup to a detached garage lets say...BUT there must not be any metallic connection between the two....and it can be something a small as a telephone line, metal water pipes and so on. Even a concrete walkway with rebar between the two buildings is considered a path...and would require a 4 wire setup. The 3 wire allowance is very specific............however what I have not seen mentioned here is even if the detached garage is a 3 or 4 wire setup....it still would require it's own grounding electrode......ie: ground rod at the detached building. I disagree with Mr.Hanson's "Potential" concept....but it is needed for lightning and surge potentials.

Yes, Remember I am a Licensed Electrician and a Home Inspector. When I explain things to you I am giving you both sides...NOT to quite or always put in a report but to educate you on the options. The client has options.....in general conversation I know quite a few HI's who will verbally give them the few options they have and then in the report defer it for an electrical evaluation to pass the liability onto the electrical contractor which is perfectly fine. The way I explain it to HI's is this.......let them know that they need to have it evaluated and an electrician will give them their choices...however many times the electrician will be out for one thing...a quick service change sale.....when other options pay be out their. Sometimes I just like to teach HI's to know the options...helps them become more rounded....options, service change, replace the breakers with actual UL tested models.....I always throw in...I recommend the evaluation....but in the event you choose to not upgrade you panel...atleast consider the breaker option.....as a local municiple inspector in my area says all the time...a little safety in something is better than no safety in nothin.

Great point scott......I always suggest HI's wear goggles if anything as your sight is WAY too important. I do have to BLUSH however...I had to do a service change on a FPE today and well....it was crap....so maybe even us electricians are coming around to the idea of just saying JUNK the FPE...lol.....I made more today junking it than giving them options on it...lol

P.S. How much time would you save using NMC versus EMT in a $ 400,000 dwelling...oh about 2 weeks of labor and probably an additional $ 3,000-$8,000 in material costs...if not more. How....well NMC 14-2 is about $ 80-90 a 250' roll.........now factor in the labor to run conduit, buy the THHN in 500' spools, labor to pull it.....time..time..time......we can rough in a $ 400,000 house in 4-5 days in NMC...... Now it is getting hard enough to win bids in todays market....tell the client you are $ 5,000 higher and see if you get the bid......the contractor does not care how it looks sad to say in most cases...they want price....atleast in the markets I deal in thats how they are.

Ahh...so Chicago ( Bob E ) are you saying all homes done in NMC is well..cheap...I have you know that is so not true......in fact what protection does EMT afford you in a FAULT condition....and well if NMC is installed properly why would you consider it unsafe....the conductors inside the NMC are similar to THHN/THWN in reality. So is Chicago so special that people will RUN to home depot and start doing their own wiring so much so that...hello....most all states observe NMC as a wiring method and perfectly fine and legal......the ONLY reason Chicago does not like NMC is because of the Unions....plain and simple.... Now....are you saying their are NO fires in Chicago....faulty receptacles, switches, lights and so on......Arc Faults will go along way to protection with NMC and is not required on bedrooms and soon ALL 15 and 20 A 125V circuits.....so does that change your view on it? I installed Rigid and EMT for years in Charlottesville, VA when me and my brother started out and I have done my share of NMC as well....and some AC cable and MC Cable along the way.....but if NMC is installed properly and a proper OCPD is installed...and adding the bonus of AFCI in the future......nothing unsafe about NMC. I would venture to say....running everything in conduit makes OTHER trade less aware of their surroundings and quite frankly complacent...with NMC it has to be installed properly and a DIYer will do what they want in ANY state.......since lets face it...Chicago or Illinois or that fact has no STATE WIDE licensing of electricians anyway.......NOW that to me is way more of a risk than using NMC....they need to focus on getting the electrical trade OUT of the unions and into the state licensing boards hands to start to see a difference.

I hear ya fella....the problem I find is this. There are far fewer ways to KILL someone with Non-Metalic Cable than with Rigid or EMT due to improper bonding and so on. Everytime I teach about bonding and so on with regards to conduits.....I find more and more screw ups that could cause more of an issue than good ole' NMC cable....hell if it is in the walls as it SHOULD be and installed properly...NMC is as safe if not safer than any other wiring method....Improper bonding with metal conduit systems is more of an issue to be aware of.... Heck Me...I LOVE romex...

lol....well I find the laws of Chicago area a bit funny...I honestly would not work in that area because I LOVE NMC and feel personally it is safer than metal conduit....because of the wide range of improper bonding issues....and again not all FPE's meet the nice and clean label...lol....but some do but in Chicago I could not live with all that metal conduit requirements...lol

Jim, So what I find alot is this.....so Mr. Hanson explains the problems with the buss bar....can you please explain why it is a problem when installed properly and the fact I run into improperly installed Cutler Hammer, Square D and GE breakers all the time that melt down and cause fires. Stat wise I do not believe a properly installed FPE Stab-lok has caused any more fire potential than any other electrical panel.....now the breakers are a different story and we explained that above. The issue here is an improperly installed Circuit Breaker by anyone could be a problem, a CB that is installed incorrectly can effect the connection gap on the buss bar on any brand, induce a load on it an it could have issues like ANY other panelboard with improperly installed breakers. If the buss bar for the breaker terminations is overheating due to improper installation you will see discoloring on the connecton bar.....but I have ripped out 90% meltdowned breakers from all manufacturers and to be honest with you...and again it is my opinion ( as Douglas has his own ) that a properly installed FPE (newly UL listed version ) are safe. hey I fully understand many will not agree...I can only give you my experience.

Yep...here is a picture of the side of one of those breakers..

Oh yeah.....it is a regional thing I am sure but then again really GOOD electricians make the big bucks...thehehe But even at $ 800.00....if the panel looks VERY nice...which I see alot of them and a properly installed FPE stab-lok NEWER UL Listed breaker...designed for that panel....and less than 20 breakers.....heck they could be safe for less than $ 400.00 so it all depends on the clients budget. My belief is........and how I train HI's is to offer advice...it is ONLY advice and they should always consult with a licensed electrician...but if they are NOT going to do anything.....replacing the breakers is a good SAFETY upgrade and atleast another option for the client....as I see alot of 100A panels with less than 20 breakers being FPE....so they need to know their options. But I can agree...as an Electrician as my REAL fulltime job.....I have no problem upgrading that panel and charging my fee... after all business is business.....but I still like my clients to know their options.

Hey fella......Yep it might but then we are talking LABOR......factor in 4-6 hours of labor versus say 20 minutes to replace the breakers.....just an option fella...don't kill the messenger... 16.00 x 20 = $ 320.00 and labor 1 hour $ 65.00hr = $ 385.00 Me doing a total panel change....$ 1,500- $ 2,000.....so thats why I say it really depends on the number of breakers...less than 20 and it becomes cost effective to just upgrade the breakers to UL Listed ones that have been TRULY tested.

Depending on the size and number of breakers in the panel.....the enclosure itself is not always the problem, Yeah I hear the breakers jump out but thats obviously when you remove thed dead front as I see plenty of FPE's that are in great working order EXCEPT for the breakers which are actually not UL "properly" listed....because they lied...so here are some solutions.. 1.) Get a Cutler Hammer Inner Retro-Kit and change it over to a cutler hammer panelboard inner frame and use the FPE enclosure itself...perfectly UL listed. 2.) Replace the FPE breakers with newer UL listed breakers......which HAVE properly passed the UL process. 3.) Simple replace the panel......However.....if we are talking less than 20 breakers....option (2) is what I would go with. Either way....I do this everyday and I would not have a problem with a stab-lok with the newer replacement breakers in it. A properly installed stab-lok I really don't have all that much concern over really....the largest concern I have with the FPE is the breakers itself....they just don't trip....the new ones do and they are made by Challenger or American but do run about $ 16.00 a piece.......so that is why I said if under 20 breakers...it is an option.....

Options.....put a new fixture in with a covered bulb....or as you stated...replace with a Flour strip light and it will then be fine.

Good thing to remember is you can always use a smaller size breaker on a larger size conductor...as long as it properly fits the terminal lugs and so on. However in this case the # 8 AL is rated for ( 60 degrees ) 30A so in this case the wire size is correct for the OCPD....Now as stated we would need to know the KW of the appliances to finish the calculation...the safety aspect is you know 30A can be handled on that 8 AL....so even if the feeder to the cooking appliances was under sized the OCPD will protect the conductors......which is about all you can go on right now without the other factors. Here is a nice calculator you can use if you ever find those values http://www.electrician2.com/calculators ... _REV1.html

Mark, That would be assuming the BOND does take place....but as we find sometimes it is also used for metal railings and other items near the jetted tub. If the piping was copper we can only HOPE it is bonded properly. I see plastic pipe coming in all the time and then change over to Copper....While they SHOULD bond the interior water piping...some electricians get it confused with 250.104 which deals with OTHER piping systems..... The motor in many cases is isolated from the case...so if the case was energized or metal parts like railings or so on that may be to the jetted tub....using the BOND will help aid in removing the potential current from the metal and basically gives a point of connection for the OTHER metal items..... If the interior water piping system is bonded properly..... 680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water must be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper not smaller than 8 AWG. It may use the copper water pipe BUT the lug is provided to meet 680.74 as one example.

Very HARD to bond water Craig when you have plastic piping everywhere... If the supply to the tub is copper piping then it would need to be bonded.....if everything is plastic.....and the motor has its own grounded plug and cord then no additional bonding is required.

if the plumbing to the jetted tub is all plastic like PEX and the piping for the jetted tub itself is all plastic and no real metal parts around the location of that pump then NO.......don't worry about seeing a bond for it to that lug set. The pump itself will have bonding within the GFCI and so on from the cord and plug. If you had copper pipes feeding the jetted tub and metal piping or fitting under it...then yes the bonding would have been required.

lol.....Brad I actually coached his teams for years and so this year I told myself I just am going to be a parent this time and well it was their first KINDA practice and it was very un-together so I popped open the notebook and made this quick one. But.....I can tell you this much......after the first 5 minutes of the practice I knew my watching would not help much.

Hey Guys, I was at my sons baseball practice and I threw together a little powerpoint thing on the basics of Grounding and Bonding. Sure it does not cover all issues but figured some would like it. Yes, I have permission to use Mike Holts images. www.theelectricalguru.com/GandB.pps Enjoy......

(B) Sizes Larger Than 6 AWG. An insulated grounded conductor larger than 6 AWG shall be identified either by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length or at the time of installation by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation. OK.....not really trying to be picky here....but in my 20 years I have not recalled seeing the " Grounded " conductor in a 120/240 panel ever being "Yellow"......very interesting as yellow as actually used in some areas as a ungrounded conductor...gotta love it.