Chris Bernhardt

Ok, but does that mean you would not report the presence of LP siding when you're sure it's LP or do you describe it with some generic term like wood composition siding? Chris, Oregon

How to you call the horizontal surfaces around a jetted tub etc. ? Counter? shelf? For example: "There are loose tiles in the counter top adjacent to the jetted tub?" Chris, Oregon

Jim, What do you do? Do you make mention of this in the report? What risk does an HI have for not mentioning that a client may not be able to now or in the future obtain insurance coverage or that said coverage cost could skyrocket? Chris, Oregon

Software? You'll need a Dwyer 2000 60pa magnehelic differential pressure gauge (Under $100), a Testo 405 air stick (Under $180) and a big fan(?) on a variac ($100). You can download the Minneapolis blower door & duct baster manuals for information also read what Dwyer has on making air velocity measurements. You don't have to depressurize to 50 pa. You can take measurements at say 10 pa, 20 pa, 30 pa and extrapolate up to 50 pa; there's a formula. You can do the whole house, rooms, ducts, whatever. Sure it's not as nifty as the real thing, but it's enough to get educated and use in a pinch. Chris, Oregon

I got a call from a client telling me her insurance company won't insure her house because it has asbestos cement siding. Is this old news, new news? I know that you can have trouble getting insurance when the home has knob & tube wiring, but I have not heard of refusals to insure because a home has asbestos siding or popcorn ceilings, or vermiculite etc. Chris, Oregon

I recently dove into this doing my own research with the question: "Can a decent HI give a client a rough estimate of potential savings without doing a full bore blower door test etc.?" My conclusion, mind you I have never performed any energy audit work, is that you could. So, what is a client really going to get from paying for a full comprehensive energy audit that an HI couldn't ball park for them? Also, I figured you could build your own blower door or duct blaster for about $500 for small residences. Chris, Oregon

It's been winter mode all year long with only two months where I had weeks that I booked out. They say the west here is in a lot better shape then anywhere else in the country, but if this is better, God help us. The one thing I have learned this time is how important non-realtor referrals are. This year, my 10th, has been the first year where I have had many weeks where non-realtor referrals exceeded realtor referrals. Chris, Oregon

No more than a moisture meter is the future. Chris, Oregon

I've been trying to figure that out too. What I think is that the common 4"x4" is rated as a post and not a beam. There might be two classifications: those that are not rated at all and those that are rated as a post. What are you considering is a non-structural post, something other than lumber? If it's a 4"x4" and it's plumb and not too long etc. I would think it would perform fine rated or unrated as a post support. The main problems I run into are: rot, too long and inadequately connected. After stuff is built you'll almost never be able to see any markings. Instead, familarize yourself with the visual grading rules for lumber if you want to give the framing you're looking at a sanity check. Also if your local community college offers it, take the engineering course for building inspectors. I went so far as to purchase copies of ASTM D245, D2555 and D1990. My curiosity gets me sometimes. Chris, Oregon

Check the city's minimum property/maintenance standards. For example in the City of Portland, Oregon they are required and are not grandfathered in. Chris, Oregon

I think I first saw an IR cam in the Professional Equipment catalog about 3 years ago? Up to that point I had no clue they had come down in price from the $60K price the company I engineered for had paid for one. I knew, at least for me, there was a lot of learn'n I could do that I believed would make me better overall at just performing a visual inspection. I believed perhaps I could also find stuff that I couldn't otherwise but that was way down on the justification list. Terry says he's been using IR for 5 years and I wish he would share his actual experiences rather than expound on the need for level N training. I have been in biz for about 10 years and after I got the camera in this tough time I have coincidentally significantly widened my realtor referring base. Without the new realtors I don't know how I would have survived but I would also say that this year many weeks have seen half or more referrals coming from past clients, which has never happened until this year. I believe aquiring and employing the camera played a signifcant part in surviving for a number of reasons. I am looking forward to this winter and our rainy season to find out what more I can learn and share. I don't know what price threshold it will take, but at some point just about every HI will have an IR cam. It's inevitable as having a moisture meter. I believe all this level N training stuff well get relegated only to those who are building biz beyond normal HI work and everybody will be happy. Chris, Oregon

Well, for one thing in this slow time, who wouldn't invest $4000 -$5000 to get back 10 times that this year just because of the wow factor? There is only so much money a guy can reasonably make in a day on a sustainable basis. Where? Do any of the Oregon inspectors know of anyone doing this? Why pay for the expensive classes? There's plenty of information already out there on the internet, minus the piece of paper that certifies that you paid ridiculous amounts of money to get a piece of paper that says you took a level N course. Well, possibly some of them up in Portland, but the rest of the state? Well, my experience has led me to believe that HI work in my area is pretty much all or nothing. There are several other avenues before me but they all pay about the same. I don't believe that an IR only biz will be sustainable in my area. These cameras are going to keep dropping in price. Soon, most subs will have them. You bet. I think you're saying that you're pushing the level N training stuff cause some HI's perhaps have messed up? I prefer to look at the mess ups and find the simplest solution. I say there are only a few ways to mess up and that any intelligent HI can easily avoid them. Chris, Oregon

Oh, my mistake. I thought they gave you one of those paper diplomas that certifies that you took level 1 training etc.; I've got one right on the wall that I'm looking at. If you could run down to Wal-mart and pick up an IR camera for $100, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Could someone please tell me have they heard of IR foo pahs by HI's that weren't unverified calls? Let's start there because so far I have only heard of the stories of HI's, supposedly trained ones, that have created all this hoopla because they made unverfied calls. Chris, Oregon

Just in case you haven't figured it out... Certing up is a political measure. The training portion is intended to lead you to an educated state on the subject. That means in the end you should be armed with an adequate number of questions to make intelligent investigations. The preliminaries these days, the physics, are easy to come by. You don't need to feel special because you know them. In other words I can hand you an IR camera and explain all of the physics and you'll still not know how to interpret the anomalies. It's the questions that you're after. A question like - How long does it take water dripping from a leaky tub drain to show up thermally on the other side of the drywall ceiling? An experiment will tell you the answer in two minutes without knowing any of the physics. Chris, Oregon

Did I say that? Well if I did I guess it must be true.[] Some people put a lot weight on this cert stuff. And when I say cert I mean whatever name you want call a piece of paper where somebody else has ordained you or confered upon you master yoda status. It is meaningless BS. I can tell you story after story of bone headed maneuvers by so called MIT engineering grads, grads from other schools with advanced degrees in this or that from my personal experience during my tenure in engineering. These papers only bolster the pride and arrogance of these individuals goading them into believing that they knew something more than everybody else. Nobody holds the patent on the principles of physics, anybody with half a brain and the internet can learn more about them in an hour than a college grad could learn in a term 20 years ago. One of the hallmarks of these individuals is that they run around making claims that only they or their equally ordained brethren can perform some type of work. They never explain why. They know that anybody with any amount of basic knowledge in physics and logic can knock them out of the ballpark. I know cause I use to do it on a regular basis, and boy they hated it! Chris, Oregon

The crux of the problem in employing IR cams in HI work is verifying the anomalies that you are seeing. This is where I wish we could get this subject headed to the actual experiences that HI's are having with their IR cams. A while back I proposed a separate IR forum to do this, but there was no interest. Chris, Oregon

Mike, it is fundamentally unwise to accept established rules without first understanding their limitations. The appearance of "shortcuts" is a result of re-application of the principles to the job at hand. My engineering mentor use to tell me "Rules are for the feeble minded". The guy was a genius. Chris, Oregon

The level I, II, III stuff is based on NDT standard so in so. You can apply the standard to any non-invasive tool. I have nothing against certing us to death if you want, but you shouldn't have to attend some expensive course to do so. The stuff is not rocket science. Some sort of exam would be fine. On the face of it certing is not a bad idea, its the industry behind it that is unecessary and designed to enrich the cert promugators. You only have to look so far as the recent ASTM attempt to create a messed up HI standard to understand what I am talking about. Chris, Oregon

I have been looking for a decent syllabus on cert 1 and II training and I can't seem to find one. Near as I can figure out the training is based on NDT standards which are reported to be sorely lacking. Cert I from what I can figure says that you know how to turn on your camera and use it's functions for qualitative work. It also indicates that you have been introduced to the basic science of IR and thermograpy. Cert II from what I can figure says that not only can you turn your camera on and use it qualitatively that you can also use it quantitavely and that you're qualified to direct level I thermographers etc. Now there's plenty of enough stuff on the internet for any studious experienced HI to learn the science behind using an IR cam in HI work. The rest a guy will learn by experimenting if he's smart. Well, so I say. What I have been trying to say is that all this cert I, II, III biz doesn't apply to us and others are trying to make it apply. The NDT standards that this stuff is based on follows in the vein of the ISO standards and what a bunch of crap that is or so I say. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the science taught in cert training doesn't apply, I'm saying this cert biz is a bunch marlarkey. And that all these cert promugaters have got the rest of you HI's shaking in your boots too afraid to buy cameras and turn them on. If the cert promugators are so afraid of us running amok with IR cameras I challenge them to be clear on the actual mistakes being made by HI's instead of running around claiming doom & gloom for every HI who turns a camera on without first taking a cert I & II class. My challenge to our industry is not to let these cert promugators control IR use in our industry and that is exactly what you guys are letting get established. Again, I'm not trying to claim some dark take over, only that the cert thing is the wrong solution to the problem of uneducated use of IR and stupid unverified calls in our industry. Chris, Oregon

Terry would you elaborate on this? For the life of me, I can't imagine why someone using IR in a home inspection would make a call based solely on an IR image. Nobody does that with a moisture meter! Well, maybe some people. Chris, Oregon

Of course I'm exaggerating. But if I had a couple of grand to blow on cert II training, I would rather blow it on air fare to hang out with Les or Kurt M. for a few days. I bet you the payback shadowing one of these brethren far exceeds what can be garnered from the Cert training. Chris, Oregon

It's like Walter says. Today maybe you will decide ten things are common, next year a hundred, five years a thousand, etc. I would imagine to an old fart like Les that 99% of what he sees is common. Chris, Oregon

No, I totally agree with you Terry. I used IR as an engineer back when there was no training beyond the rep showing you how to turn the equipment on and pour liquid nitrogen in it. I haven't been able to imagine yet the justification of the cost of the cert I, II training. The proper use of IR is probably beyond 99% of the ability of inspectors out there even with training. I've been trying to edge on the 1% to get a camera. I believe the intelligent use by that 1% would spill over and prevent a good chunk of the 99% from messin up. Chris, Oregon

I'm people and education is not an option but paying for it is. Chris, Oregon

You can't productively scan every wall, floor and ceiling surface in a house with a moisture meter. And even if you tried to do it, you'll still miss spot areas that IR picked up. For example I routinely will IR scan the ceilings under bathrooms, particularly under the fixture locations near as I can approximate them. Then run water and pickup those small drip leaks on IR. When I try and scan them with my moisture meter, they are hard to find even when you know about where they are at because the area might be just the size of a fifty cent piece or even a quarter. Also the opposite occurs. I'll find that my tramex will indicate high on a basement wall, and get nothing on IR, then use a surveymaster which will indicate nothing. It can be a real head banger at times trying to figure out what the hell is going on in the wall without opening it up and looking. We've been talking about morons with IR cams making stupid calls, but that happens with moisture meters also. You can't just pick up these tools, turn them on and go "aha, there's moisture". If you don't want to look like a moron, you'll need to experiment literally and self calibrate yourself to what your equipment might be indicating. In other words, you can spend thousands of dollars on IR education and still end up looking like a moron. Chris, Oregon