StevenT

Last week I posted that I lost a "good" job because I didn't have a cam. The job entailed inspecting an EIFS house that might have damage. Since I've yet to see a residential EIFS installation that was done properly, the chances of damage was likely. The inspection went beyond the norm of listing the errors. The client needed a report that was precise enough for a certified installer to bid on, to make the repairs. Including repairs to the substructure. I think that this was an inspection that left me exposed to a tremendous liability. Since I could not "machine gun" the house with probing to map the damage, I agreed with the client that the best way was in addition to the visual... which would have told a great deal, would be to have the house IR'd. I spoke to the folks at Flir and Fluke, they both agreed that "under certain conditions" I could do this with an IRCam. But they both made it clear that I would need a cam with higher resolution and that I would need a higher understanding of interperting the scans. I hope they are not pulling my yoyo. I would like to see the scans that made you feel the entire house should be ripped.

Chris, I agree that if some of us had cams to experiment with, after experimenting enough, we would start to recognize different anomolies. I think that if I saw a reading that I thought meant something, I would investigate deeper to confirm my suspicions. There are two things that I do know. You made a very serious call. Are you sure of your suspicions. If you are... great! 1. I would have to be very comfortable with my IR ability before I called for someone to replace ALL of their siding. Did you see other signs of this "rot" that confirmed your suspicions of replacing everything? How was the flashing? 2. Taking a class... a real class... taught by EXPERIENCED professional instructors... not just some "crew" who one day decided ... "hey, I got an idea, let's start an IR school, " will teach you more in a shorter amount of time than you will learn by playing, experimenting, guessing what the readings mean. I like the idea of a school that is recommended by the manufacturer. To me, it means that they have faith in the schools ability. You talk about JK or KM or MO'H, perhaps you are right, maybe they could learn how to use the cam solo. But the way they would do it is by dismantling alot of things to see what the reading translated to. You are talking about a lot of time and ripping open. Yes, If you see rot and then take a reading, you could then start to figure out what it looks like. Just be careful. We are not talking about a wet spot in the ceiling, or hot air escaping through the window frames.

If the two 20 amp dbl breakers, with the white wires taped black, are feeding 240 volt equiptment and do not have neutrals, only grounds... you would be left with 23 breakers and 23 neutrals. I cannot enlarge the picture to count the grounds. The 240 volt circuit feeding the stove has a neutral (and a ground) because it is also feeding 120volts to the stove. The 4th dbl breaker is feeding a multiwire cuicuit, sharing a neutral.

I am under the impression the a three light will not detect a false ground. But then again, a Suretest may give a bad reading when used too close to the main panel. As far as the all of the Decoras testing no ground, I think that may be a different cause than the regular duplex (may be). Are the receptacle boxes plastic or metal? Are the grounds attached? I've seen some receptacles... like clock outlets, that MUST be wired to ground and not simply screwed in... even to a metal box.

...two black wires... one black wire with white stripe... I think I need new glasses. I'll bet you .50 that thedebate is about the non insulated neutral.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are. The olny ipmarotnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a tatol mses and you can siltl raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by istlef but the wrod as a wlohe.

Besides double lugging @ the two black wires @ the neutral bar, I would think that they would be wrapped w/white tape... just as the white wires @ the top double 20's are wrapped w/black tape. If I could get my hands in that panel, I would be curious if the switched color wires originate from the same circuit, and then if they do, why the switch. With all the copper in that box, why the aluminum?

Mike, What you say makes sense. I guess it all depends upon the savings.

Kurt, I agree with needing the certification... and the training that it represents. At some point I would like to go beyond the Class 1. The problem is that most schools do not provide you with a cam. Yes, there are courses that will train you without a cam, but they clearly state that you will not be able to do some of the exercises. Even the one that Mike speaks of gave me the feeling that the guys that wanted to stay and complete the course will need a cam. Check out this page at Fluke, there is some useful info. FLUKE

Hi Richard, I also thought that the IR would not show damage below. When speaking to a representative, he told me that it would show damage... to a degree. Perhaps the interior temperature transfers differently through a piece of rotted or sheathing. As far as mositure that has been there for a while. I was told that it would show up. I'm guessing it MIGHT have something to do with the fact that surrounding temperatures are always changing and different elements "catch up" at different speeds. So we could be talking resolution and/or sensitivity. It may also have something to do with someones ability to interpert the readings. In some of the advertising re: ICAMS, they show a large picture of the side of a building. It shows leaks within the walls. I'm curious if this picture (of a large area) was taken with an entry level cam and the Thermographer stood two blocks away? For this reason, I feel that it will be important to be able to change lenses. I don"t believe the entry level cams can do that. I am sure that as I become more familiar with IR, my opinions will change and be based more on facts rather than rumor. I just don't want to "save" money by buying an entry level tool that will not do what I would like to be able to do.

Before buying a Cam, it is important to know what you would like to be able to do with it and what each models limitations are. The job that I lost (and I say lost because it was a scheduled job that was cancelled), was not a basic home inspection. My client needed a report for a "certified" EIFS installer that would be accurate enough to use for bidding and repair purposes. Now, I am quite capable of doing a visual inspection and reporting all of the installation errors, damage and probable leaks, but I also needed to include and map moisture readings and damage to the structure below. My WWD is a very good tool, but really not the right tool for the job. I would not have confidence in the results, and besides that, There is no way I am going to scan every inch of the system. Yes, I could have probed, but how much probing can you do to a building that your client does not own? The proper cam, with the proper lenses and with PROPER TRAINING would have made it easy. What I am looking at is about $16k - $20k. There is a super duper model for $30k.

I do not turn on water mains or gas valves, I do not light pilot lights, nor do I turn on circuit breakers. If the client, agent or owner is present, I let them know that I am "not allowed" to do so, and I let them know that if they wish to turn something on and they can... but I can't. If the owner is not present, I include "it may be off for a reason" If something is not on, I report it as such. For instance, if I turn on a bathroom light and it does not go on, I report it as "did not light". If the owner or agent is present, I let them know... verbally, that it could simply be a blown bulb and if they wish to change it and it works, I will not have to include it in my report. Imagine turning on a water main, only to find out it was shut for a reason... like a leaking pipe. You could end up with one hell of a mess to clean up, or pay for. If a heating system (or whatever) is shut down, I still inspect as much as I can, but include the limitation in my report.

I regret missing Watts. It feel out on a High Holiday and I had a responsibility to be home. Let me know if you need any help.

These are the folks that train for Fluke

I spoke to a fellow at Fluke, their equiptment actually sounds pretty good. But, I really don't know the difference. The class you are working on sounds great. Speaking of Watts, any chance of a repeat?

I lost a good job today because I didn't have a cam. I feel it is a necessary tool. I visited Flir and Fluke, I have very expensive taste.

I love it.

If this dishwasher is on a Multi WWire Circuit, and both hot legs were incorrectly hooked up to the same bus, creating an "additive" effect on the neutral, could it have an effect like this?

The wall was just plastered and so was the plasterer. Next time I'll take a picture of what it looks like now.

Are you sure it's a shower? It looks more like a transporter.

The two hots and one neutral are entering from above. The red hot leg is jumped to feed both sides of this panel, the black hot leg passes through this panel into the apartment below. They are also sharing the neutral. Besides double lugging, the main breakers are independant of each other... no breaker ties. Chris, I've been working in the building directly across the street. It turns out I was there when it happened.

Hi, I see a number of this wrong with this panel. You ar e right about the multi wire circuit, but there is a second leg, feeding the apartment below. Anything else?

Hey Chad, Got the EM. I'm not commenting on this box just yet, but it's a good reason for folks in hi rise buildings... to have a home inspections. Besides sharing electric, I've come across some amazing fire wall/penetration problems. Never a dull moment, I'm working across the street from where the psycologist was killed on Tuesday.

There are 200+ apts in this building. Wired like this. Image Insert: 89 KB

I once installed a system with three tankless heaters, three spearate mixing valves... all to serve the same system (7 scrub rooms for 14 operating rooms. Each heater could be isolated, the system could be fed from the loop, cold water feed, or the regular (remote) hot water system. The system was over loaded with redundancy, the thinking of the "intelligent ones" was that in case of a catastrpohe, if one system was out, there would be another as back up... they took it a step further with the third system. As far as waiting 5 minutes for hot water... that is why you put install a loop with a circulator pump, controlled by an aquastat on the end of the loop. Once you do that, you will have "instant" hot water.