hausdok

Sorry if you feel scolded. That's not my intent. My intent is to make you understand that some of the ideas you are floating around here, such as the idea that the open inner end of that upper gutter emptying onto that sloped roof plane is somehow going to cause massive erosion when it won't/doesn't until one is careless enough to allow a buildup of slime and gives that slime the opportunity to start eating the roof - it's the same with the downspouts. Here's what I know, When I find moss or algae growing on masonry and I lift it or scrape it, I invariably find the surface beneath it softer or more worn. Sometimes the mortar directly behind moss is completely trashed while mortar that's clean is hard and healthy. With mortar, I think that has something to do with the fungi eating the lime; I don't know what the hell it's eating in the concrete and red brick. When I find downspouts from upper roof discharging onto lower roofs on the sunny sides of a house where the UV prevents growth of moss or algae directly beneath the downspout discharge point, the roofs are fine and don't show any accelerated granule loss over the rest of the field. However, on the same house when I go around to the east and north sides where the sun can't reach those areas, and if there is moss or algae below those discharge points, there is almost always accelerated granule loss below the spouts, whereas when a homeowner has been diligent about removing the moss or algae and has done it with chemicals and low pressure water and not a pressure washer, there is no appreciable difference in the surface texture or flexibility of the shingles. When I find algae ignored on flatwork the flatwork will have more wear there. The surface will be just a little bit rougher - as if it's been slightly sandblasted. When I find moss on roofs, whether wood or asphalt, there is always a cost in wear. Shakes will be punky from the affects of the acid breaking down the shake into food - the granules on an asphalt roof will slough off more easily where there's been moss growth or the roof is algae stained - just rub your palm over the surface in areas with moss and algae on them versus clear areas where the sun hits the roof and prevents moss growth, there is a difference. I believe that there is some kind of a chemical process that takes place when the asphalt in the shingles is left with fungi on it for too long. When horses asses with teeth have climbed up onto roofs and pressure washed them I can always tell where the moss or algae stains had been because the amount of erosion of protective granules on the areas where there had been moss or algae is many times what it is where the rest of the roof was otherwise healthy. I'm not talking about the kind of erosion you see where they shove the wand right up against the shingle - I'm talking about an overall lessening of granule concentration that can make those areas look like they are 40 year old shingles on a 12 year old roof that's been cleaned. If there is no detrimental effects from the moss or algae, why isn't the accelerated wear consistent over the entire roof that's been pressure-washed? I used to think that it was simply because the pressure-washing guy got his wand too close and because he or she would have concentrated more on the area with moss. I thought that until a friend of mine, who is a total incompetent when it comes to doing anything around his house, asked me if I would teach him how to properly clean his roof. One slope of his 4 year old architectural-grade asphalt roof had a pretty good moss growth on it; another slope had some really dark ugly algae stains that he referred to as "dirt." I got up on that roof with an ordinary garden hose and rinsed most of the moss clumps off easily without much pressure. Then I got down to examine the surface and found that where there had been moss clumps the surface texture was far rougher - sort of like the difference one sees between 40 grit sandpaper and 180 grit sandpaper - very significant. Then I examined the moss clumps that I'd washed into the gutter and found the bottom of them with granules embedded in the moss - when the moss was removed the granules came with it - and this without any pressure washing or use of chemicals. Then I mixed up a solution of sodium hypochloride mixed with a little bit of liquid detergent to use as a binder and hit that roof. I'd picked an overcast day to do this so that the water wouldn't evaporate quickly and the stuff would work the best. I saturated that roof, only in the areas that needed cleaning, allowed the solution to work for a few hours and then rinsed the roof off with that garden hose using a soft spray. It cleaned right up but when one looked carefully, one was able to see that where the moss clumps or algae stains had been there was a subtle worsening of granule erosion over those parts of the same slope where there hadn't been any fungi. That made me a true believer; if I hadn't seen it for myself, I would have forever thought that the pressure-washer guys were causing all of the erosion instead of only part of it. Here's another thing I've noticed; asphalt shingles left with algae stains on them for an extended period of time are noticeably more brittle than those without the algae in areas where the fungi doesn't grow. I've corner tested shingles on a 10-year old high-quality asphalt roof in the middle of long dark algae streaks and found them with the flexibility that I'd normally expect with 20 years of weathering, whereas the shingles on the same roof that are in areas where there is no algae or moss the lamina is still very pliable and consistent with what I'd expect from a 10 year old roof. I don't say this because I think I'm smarter than anyone else here; in fact, I think I'm a whole lot dumber than most of you here - you guys are downright scary - and I don't have a study done by accredited scientists that I wave around and say, "See, I'm right." I only have nearly 15 years of very careful observation of roofing materials while climbing around on roofs in this damp fungi-rich environment to my credit. I didn't dream this stuff up on my own; it was somewhere in the late 90's when I read an article somewhere written by some building expert - Old House Journal perhaps - where that expert mentioned the detrimental effects that oxalic acid has on various materials and he mentioned moss and algae (fungi) as one source of that acid. That made me curious and after that I began really paying attention to where moss and algae were growing, ages of roof covers, materials, etc. and how the fungi was affecting them. I'm convinced that I've got it right though I know most of you think I'm loopy. By the way, this doesn't only occur with moss or algae; tannic acid leeching onto a roof from tree debris left on the roof also seems to cause an almost identical effect. I've looked at hundreds of roofs where wet tree debris has been ignored for months on end and when I've pulled a soaking wet mat of moldering leaves off those valleys found significant granule loss under those areas where the debris had accumulated, whereas other areas of the same valley without debris were fine. I've seen roofs where annual leaf fall onto the surface has worn out only those sections of roof where the leaves accumulate and the rest of the cover is still fine. Some debris from some types of trees seems to be more aggressive than from others. I don't think it's just coincidence - after all, if tannic acid can soften dry hard leather and change its composition such that it remains always pliable after that, there has to be something to it. Anyway, think about some of the things that you've been saying. Downspouts discharging onto lower roofs will cause...etc. and ask yourself why it doesn't happen with every single roof where they are configured like that - because it really doesn't - and ask yourself if those are fair and credible statements or are imagined issues based on an entirely different and misunderstood mechanism. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Works awesome. I took off the Rube Goldeberg combustion air controls that I designed with servos, on-off-on aquastats, thermistor motor controls and replaced it all with a cool, simple pill type linear thermostat that lifts a cone out of the intake hole as the temp drops to allow more combustion air. I'll post a pic. Wow, This guy is intimidatingly scary smart. [:-tophat]

No, That's not what I said at all. The oxalic acid secreted by the moss and algae clinging to the shingles is what breaks down the material. The water only washes the loosened material away. He titled the thread "Design flaws show themselves." I don't think it's a design flaw at all. Nothing really bad will happen from that water as long as they are careful to remove any algae, moss or lichen as soon as it begins to appear, instead of leaving it there to continue to feed and loosen those granules. These examples they are showing all show signs of algae or moss - is it any wonder there is wear there? The roof will be fine despite all of that water rushing onto the surface. If your really afraid of what that water will do to the surface, though I don't think it's necessary, tell the client to slip some pieces of shingle in over the washed area as a sacrificial surface. They'll take the brunt of the wear from any water. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

I don't concur. I've been telling you guys for years, but you don't seem to get it, that moss and algae secrete oxalic acid to eat. It's the same stuff that one would use to bring back the color of concrete. If it can etch concrete, it can cause the bond between those granules and the shingle matting to break down, cause the granules to slough off and the shingle media to break down. That is, if you care to listen. We have both of those gutter details in abundance in our damp Seattle climate and it never seems to be an issue unless there is slime buildup retained on the roof or algae stains present at the damaged area. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Is that a 4020? Haven't seen one of those in 30 years. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

That particular type of sweated-on fitting looks like copper and is copper colored but I don't think it's an issue. When I was a rookie and I saw those, I'd write them up and explain how copper couldn't connect directly to galvanized and about the whole requirement for brass or a dielectric blah, blah, blah. Then after about 4 or 5 customers called me up to explain that licensed plumbers had looked at the issue and were declaring that it was not an "issue" and that (I imagine) I didn't know what the f*** I was talking about, I decided that the prudent thing to do would be to not report them as an issue until/unless I found corrosion or some other issue with them. Well, it's been nearly 15 years and I've seen many thousands of those on many thousands of inspections ,installed by many different plumbers in many different jurisdictions without dielectrics or brass or bronze or anything else between them and the steel, and have yet to ever see any issues caused by dissimilar metal. I'm convinced that although those are copper colored that they must have a very high brass content in them or something like that. Don't know why I've never bothered to just stop in the plumbing aisle at the big box and look at them to see what they're labeled as as far as content goes. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, There's no need to make a second post. Just PM me and I'll move it. I have. The other one is gone now. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Glad we could help; but, please, get the terminology correct. That big bare wire? It's not a grounding electrode, it's a service grounding conductor. The rod that 's driven into the grount that it's connected to? It's not a ground rod; it's a service grounding electrode. It's important to learn this stuff and knowing it might one day serve you well when you're sitting in a courtroom testifying against Larry, Daryl and Daryl. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, I don't see a service grounding conductor connected to that ground bus; so, if that heavy conductor is your service ground you must bond the neutral buses to the panel enclosure. Look at the second picture; you have a square hole on the left and a U-shaped slot at the edge of the strap on the right. The U-shaped slot is where the green bonding screw needs to be. Was this panel one that an electrician salvaged? Those huge open knockouts at the bottom of the panel look like they used to house myers hubs with conduit. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Marc, Loosen up; unless I'm way off, Jimmy's question was rhetorical. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Well, this isn't a Hydro-Aire system but it does a pretty good job of illustrating what I mean. The shiny rectangular object at the center of the photo that's highlighted by the elipse is a plate exchanger. If you look closely, you can see that there are two circulators; one for domestic hot water and the other for the in-floor heat. There is a tempering valve on the domestic hot water side so that the hot water circulating to the hydronic system can run hotter. The expansion tank is on the closed hydronic heating loop. Click to Enlarge 42.07 KB ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

No, it's a Bennett home. On the crest. Further up near 10th they are putting up a bunch of Japanese built zero-energy homes that were supposed to have been built in Japan, broken down, shipped over here and are being reerected. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

I'm pretty disgusted right now, Did a house last Thursday that is 87 years old. It's perched at the head of a really really steep draw in the central area. The online ad for it looked really nice. Here's what it said then and still says: Dutch Colonial with amazing VIEWS on Capitol Hill for under $600,000! Newly painted shingle, gorgeous shake roof, copper gutters, decks to enjoy the views (even from the fully finished MIL daylight basement), and attached garage all make this a special house. Period crown and chair rail moldings, oak floors which have been protected with carpet for years, a charming entry with a foyer that showcases the view and an excellent floor plan all make this a Capitol Hill charmer. Ready to be loved!… When I arrived there were three big box trucks out front, huge blowers being outloaded from the house and about a dozen guys running around with some of them carrying bags of stuff out. Uh, oh. A 1/2-inch water line had frozen in an upstairs uninsulated exterior wall. They'd had to tear up carpeting throughout and completely demo most of the plaster on the main level in the front half of the house. Damage probably would exceed $100k in a great house. This one? Not so great. Here's what the ad still shows: Click to Enlarge 78.61 KB Click to Enlarge 54.14 KB Click to Enlarge 55.36 KB Click to Enlarge 50.33 KB Click to Enlarge It's waaaay steeper than it looks, believ me. Click to Enlarge 47.74 KB Click to Enlarge 51.36 KB Click to Enlarge 50.8 KB Click to Enlarge 84.32 KB Click to Enlarge 86.27 KB Click to Enlarge 100.4 KB Click to Enlarge 47.82 KB Click to Enlarge 56.66 KB Click to Enlarge 61.37 KB Click to Enlarge 68.32 KB Click to Enlarge 97.53 KB Click to Enlarge 47.24 KB Click to Enlarge 55.76 KB Click to Enlarge 79 KB Click to Enlarge 66.27 KB Click to Enlarge 67.2 KB The first thing that jumped out at me - even though all the carpeting was gone and most of the stuff that would retain smells was gone - was that the place reeked of that peculiar old person smell. You know the one I mean - urine mixed with sweat and general uncleanliness. I know, I know, that sounds cruel, but I know that some of you know what I'm talking about. I did the job on Thursday; and, despite irrigating my sinuses several times, I still couldn't get the smell out of my nose for three days afterward. Going beyond the smell, I walked through to the kitchen and about halfway back the back left corner did a steep dive downward. Down to the basement and walked out the back. They'd added onto the house over the years and built it out over a back yard that had been fill behind a high retaining wall. The retaining wall is buckling and the flatwork behind the building has cracked and settled so badly that the lippage from side to side is about two inches. Found a huge crack at both sides of the foundation. In the basement level garage it measures more than two inches wide at the top and tapers to zero over five feet. Downspouts around the house empty into old concrete crocks encased in the flatwork. My guess is that they've been leaking roof runoff under that flatwork and beneath the footings for decades. Found stress cracks more than 1/8-inch wide in freshly painted drywall in the basement MIL apartment. Told the client that I thought that, conservatively, it would cost at least $100k just to stabilize the slope and get her level again; not to mention the extensive interior work that will need to be done and the new foundation needed under the back half. He told me that's what he'd expected; they'd already consulted a structural engineer and geo-tech and just wanted me to tell them about the rest of the house. Watching the news last night of all of the flooding and mudslides that have occurred over the past couple of days, I've been wondering if those cracks in the basement are now about a half inch wide. I'm wondering how much bending stress a house that old is going to take before the part that's settled decides to just tear away from the rest and drop into that very deep/steep draw. If I were a buyer who were drawn to that house by the ad and then ended up wasting my time to go out there, discover that place so badly torn up and then see and feel the settling of the structure, I'd be furious. Shameful, duplicitous, a fraud, despicable, all seem too weak in my mind to describe the agent. What I'd like to call her can't be voiced out loud in polite society. Real estate agents who run ads like that and don't reveal this kind of thing should literally be pilloried or placed in stocks. I'd like to see them set up some stocks downtown in Pioneer square for the exclusive use for punishment of real estate agents. All of the grocery markets could dump their spoiled vegetables and fruit off at a dumpster there once a day so that passersby could werf rotting produce at the realtor held in the stocks. Maybe we could even bring back the heavy iron masks with the split tongue hanging out of them that they used to use in Europe for liars and make the agent wear it for a month or two. Oh! Maybe we could bring back public dunking. Puget Sound is cooooooollllllllllddddd. It's a good thing I'm not king of the world or I'd maroon all duplicitous agents out on Johnson Island and tell them to inhale deeply. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Wait for it to load. It's worth it! [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube] [utube]

Yeah, I looked at 'em. Can't make heads or tails of what you've got from those photos. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Yeah, I've seen about a half dozen. Always in wealthier homes or where there was a gourmet cook in the family. As bill said, you can pretty much heat the house with the darned things. I don't say much about them. Folks buying a house with one of those usually aren't concerned about the cost of gas. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi David, Yeah, as soon as I walked up the stairs and saw all of those ceiling intakes I'd expected to find an HRV up in the attic. Pretty disappointed not to find one. Can't imagine what the HVAC guys are thinking. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

My thought: there's no way I would have been up on that roof in the wind and rain. Just another winter day on the plateau. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Maybe where you are. It's extremely common here to have a fresh air intake connected to the return air and on a timer. Cycles on and an actuator opens a damper allowing cold air to dump into the cold air return. At the same instant it cycles on, the furnace air handler kicks on and an exhaust fan, usually on the upper floor or in a laundry room, starts pulling air out of the interior. Our energy code recommends running those systems 8 out of every 24 hours; I think 4 to 6 is just fine. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, No, no HRV on the system; it's one of the things I suggested to the client that should have been installed in a house this tight. Jim, that crawl is essentially like a storage closet within the insulated envelope of a basement; like having a storage closet under stairs on the perimeter of the basement but with the exterior wall insulated instead of left cold like one would normally see. There was no sign that the temperature differential between there and the mudroom between this crawlspace and the garage has caused any issues. No condensation, no odors, no funk at all. Gotta jet to my 1:00 pm. Talk later. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Yesterdays inspection up on the Issaquah Highlands plateau. This isn't my photo; I got this from the builder's website. It was raining cats and dogs and blowing like a banshee. Dark as dusk at midday. Getting up on that roof kicked my ass three ways from Sunday. Click to Enlarge 140.21 KB This is an ultra-tight house. The used closed-cell foam in the walls. In the attic there's 3-4 inches of closed cell shot on the ceilings and then there's another 15-inches of blown-in fiberglass on top of that. The foam made it hard as hell to find the lower chords of the trusses with my feet so that I didn't end up punching a hole through the ceiling. There is a whole house air change intake at the ceiling of every bedroom, plus two in the hallway, on the second floor. The primary heat is a heat pump. When it gets so cold that the emergency heat has to come on, the gas furnace below the evaporator - the coil of which supplies air movement for the heat pump system - kicks on as a backup. The completely sealed crawlspace has a concrete floor with a drain, two three inch thick layers of foam board against the concrete walls, way too much closed cell blown against the cripple walls and is a comfortable quiet 55°F. There's as much room in the crawl as in some small condos downtown. Talk about bonus storage space. Click to Enlarge 43.64 KB Click to Enlarge 54.3 KB Here's the kicker; no timer for the whole house air change system. I asked the client where the timer was. He had no idea. I explained what the system was supposed to do and asked if the builder had described anything like that to him and told him what to do about it. He said the HVAC guys had told him to keep the system on 24/7/365. ???!!! I asked him how he is supposed to turn it off without a timer. He walked me over to the furnace and showed me a little toggle switch sloppily installed at the side of the furnace cabinet. It actually looked like the HVAC guy punched the hole with a hammer and screwdriver. He said, "I kind of noticed that the heating bill went up after the last time the HVAC guys were here to work on the heat pump but I didn't know it had anything to do with that system." House was comfortable inside despite the howling going on outside. Can't imagine that pumping your heated interior air outside 24/7/365 makes any sense at all. Told him he'd better call up the horse's ass with teeth that told him to run that system 24/7/365 and tell him to get back there and install a timer on the system so he can throttle down conditioned air loss to what's reasonable. Your thoughts? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Yeah, excavation on the outside, application of an external membrane and then installation of something like Deltadrain would make more sense than paying someone $6500 to paint the foundation wall. If I were going to pay that kind of money for interior paint, I'd want them to use crystaline waterproofing material (CWM) to stop the water deep in the wall instead of allowing it to get near the face. Why the fuss? Did the basement re-flood? It's been a really really wet fall and early winter so far; are we making mountains out of a mole hill if there's no evidence it's re-flooded? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

It's only a hunch but it sounds to me like your upstairs return isn't pulling a whole lot of air. Once you put that basement return in, the furnace was able to get plenty of return air from the basement and you reduced intake on the upper level to the point that the air upstairs isn't as "conditioned" as it needs to be. Do an experiment. Take a towel, wipe down those windows and then try covering up that basement return and running the system for a while to see if the condensation still occurs. If it stops, start uncovering the basement return a little bit at a time until the condensation begins again. At that point, you'll know what size opening at the basement will unbalance the system to the point where the condensation occurs upstairs. You may need to install some kind of return air damper. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

I've seen or replaced dozens of clogged domestic coils in boilers. Yes, as I said in a previous post, if heat is applied to the tubing from the outside, it'll cause mineral build-up on the inside of the coil. But in a hydro-air coil, you aren't applying head to the coil, you're blowing cool air over it. I don't see why the coils in a hydro-air system would clog up anymore than any other copper hot water pipe. Just running hot water through a pipe doesn't cause it to clog. - Jim Katen, Oregon Hi, Yes, I see your point; but I still wouldn't discount the possibility that a 30-year old coil could become clogged with crud if it's been circulating ordinary domestic water instead of boiler solution for that long. He says he had a leak but it stopped of its own accord? Hmmm? The domestic hot water circuits on a house are subject to more scrubbing than a hydro coil with narrow tubes because they are in constant use but these systems aren't supposed to have water continuously run through them because scrubbing can cause problems; at least that's what I seem to remember someone teaching me about hydronic systems someplace. Don't these things basically sit with water in them outside of the primary flowstream for months on end? Yuck! Hope they've got a timer and circulator on that system that cycles the system once a day regardless of season. I've just always thought of these things as the equivalent of car radiators. Like a Hydro Air coil, car radiators have a pressure-relief device built into the system and they have a lot of cold air passing through them but they crud up anyway. Sometimes even car heaters get crudded up; that's one of the reasons (At least I think it is one of the reasons) that they began recommending very high concentrations of specialized coolants in those systems decades ago. If one had a Hydro-Air system with a plate exchanger running something like propylene glycol instead of water, wouldn't the coils stay cleaner and be less likely to clog up? Back to the OP and another possibility; I wonder if he's had the system opened up and actually been able to see whether that coil is clean on the outside or whether there is 3 decades worth of dirt and crud preventing airflow through it? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi Jim, Aren't the Hydro Air coils almost the same configuration as a car radiator; thin tubes surrounded by thin fins? It's the thin tubes becoming clogged with lime deposits and other gunk that impedes circulation that I'm thinking about. That's why I suggested acid cleaning. There's a lot less wear and tear on these systems with a plate exchanger and if you get a leak in the water heater or vice versa you don't have to worry about completely depleting the other system. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike