Hardi kick out flashing- when did they start.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Any of you know when kick out flashing became part of the siding manufacturers installation instructions?

I am going to go through the archives and see what I can track down, but I really need to stick it to an arrogant "repair" contractor ASAP.

[hausdok]

Hi,

I guess I copied out the photo of the kickout flashings from the Hardiplank instructions somewhere around 2002 or 2003. I don't know how long they'd contained the photo before that. Call the folks at James Hardie and ask them. They've always been really helpful whenever I've called down there.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brandon Whitmore]

Thanks Mike,

I found a copy of the 2005 instructions, but the instructions were from Canada. They did not show any kick out flashing details, so hopefully someone can pop on here and prove otherwise.

I'm dealing with a house built in 2005, with typically crap installations at kick out areas. Some step flashing will drain water directly into the wall with no real kick out, some kick out material is actually cupped/ sloped back to the wall, etc. I wrote it up as an issue, and a contractor went out to address it because it is now a lender required repair. The contractor added some sealant and called it good. The lender is requiring that I sign off on it before they will fund the loan. Hence the problem. PS: Underlined areas are responses from the other side.Here's my last e- mail:

It should be noted that the issue is on a small roof overhang that has a "roof surface" of less than 12 square feet.

Please show me something in writing from a credible source indicating that kick out flashing must be properly detailed only when there is a roof surface of "X'' square feet.

This is on a weather exposed S. face, where wind driven rain can pound against the wall above. There are actually 4 locations where proper kick out flashing needs to be installed (porch and S. lower roof lines)

All of the water from the weather exposed walls drain down onto the lower level roof lines. This can be a large volume of water during heavy rains.

2005 water did nothing different than present day water. The building code has always indicated the need to prevent water intrusion. I've seen kick out flashing properly detailed for many years-- well prior to 2005, so this is nothing new. There have been many times I have seen exacty what happens to a wall when flashing deails are poorly or improperly installed. I don't have access to the 2005 installation instructions. These instruction change constantly in recognition of poor or improper constructions details that need to be addressed.

It definetly is of sufficient length and angle for the roof area and pitch

In my opinion, the existing flashing is nowhere close to complying with industry standards, and the kick out flashing is back sloped towards the wall, at least at one location. Here is what the siding manufacturers installation instructions state:

Because of the volume of water that can pour down

a sloped roof, one of the most critical flashing

details occurs where a roof intersects a sidewall.The roof must be flashed with step flashing. Where

the roof terminates, install a kickout to deflect water

away from the siding.

Bold has been added for emphasis. It is critical, because when done poorly, major problems can occur.

I do back it up with my 17yrs of experience in the siding industry and building.

While 17 years of construction experience is impressive, it does not negate the fact that the existing installation details will be problematic.

Also the specs he used were effective on April 2009, way after the buildings were built.

The "repair" was performed within the last week.

If the lender is willing to accept a letter from the contractor stating the kick out flashing is properly installed, so be it. In good faith, I can not sign off on the existing installation.

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxxxxxx

[gtblum]

The contractor added some sealant and called it good. The lender is requiring that I sign off on it before they will fund the loan. Hence the problem.

Noooooo! The contractor you punted to called it good. Let him sign off.

[Jim Katen]

Any of you know when kick out flashing became part of the siding manufacturers installation instructions?

I am going to go through the archives and see what I can track down, but I really need to stick it to an arrogant "repair" contractor ASAP.

I never heard the term kickout flashing before the mid '90s. As far as I know, it first became a common term associated with EIFS systems.

However, I was installing the things that are now known as kickout flashings back in the '70s. And at that time, I was working with a crappy crew building crappy houses -- and even that bunch of goofs wouldn't have dreamed of omitting the little bent piece of flashing at the bottom of a sidewall run.

I've attached Hardi's installation instructions from 2001 -- it's the earliest version that I have, but it doesn't show details on *any* flashings. It doesn't show flashings at deck ledgers, projecting wood trim, windows, doors, transitions, or anywhere else. That doesn't mean that you don't need them.

If the house was built in '05, it was permitted under the '03 Oregon Dwelling Specialty Code. That code says, in 703.8, "Approved corrosion-resistant flashing shall be provided in the exterior wall envelope in such a manner as to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish and shall be installed to prevent water from reentering the exterior wall envelope."

It says flashing shall prevent water entry, it doesn't say caulk shall prevent water entry.

Then, later in the same section, "Approved corrosion resistant flashing shall be installed at all of the following locations: blah, blah, blah, 6. At wall and roof intersections."

If they're using caulk to keep water out of the wall, it's wrong. Period. Is now. Was then.

Download Attachment: HardiplankUS.pdf

243.3 KB

[Brandon Whitmore]

Thanks Jim,

I just sent James Hardie an e- mail requesting clarification as to when they started showing kick out flashing details. I also requested all of their archived installation instructions so that I can post them here-- ya' never know, they may hook us up.

Noooooo! The contractor you punted to called it good. Let him sign off.

Hi Gary,

That's the problem. The way the lender worded everything, they required that I re- inspect and sign off on the repair work. I've told my client in a separate e- mail that I could get creative with the report sent to the lender, and state that the contractor signed off on it if need be. This is an HOA deal, making it more interesting.

My client is on my side on this; I'm not making any enemies on this side of the transaction. She wants things done right, so she doesn't have to worry about the wall rotting out in the future.

[gtblum]

My client is on my side on this; I'm not making any enemies on this side of the transaction. She wants things done right, so she doesn't have to worry about the wall rotting out in the future.

Brandon

Understood. It's about helping the client.

I have an 08 manual and I can't find a thing about the roof size being factor, but the diagram for the kick out and flashing, is in almost every section.

[asihi]

I found this on Hardi-Planks website http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/best-pra ... -plank.pdf Look at page 10.

I don't know when they started requiring kick out flashing, but I'm not sure why it matters. Kickout flashing is a fairly essential part for keeping water out of the building.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Hi Tony,

I've already copied and pasted that detail on my report in the hopes that the would do it right. The contractors complaint is that I am using new standards, which got me to wondering........

[patt]

Brandon

The earliest Hardi instructions I have that show the kick out detail, both plank and panel, are the 05 instructions with a print date of 09/05 and effective date of 12/05. The 04 instructions don't depict any kick out flashings.

Download Attachment: Hardi 12-05.pdf

175.52 KB

[Brandon Whitmore]

Thanks Peter,

You answered my question a while back in regards to Hardie as well. Do you have access to all sets of their installation instructions?

[Scottpat]

I would and do report that it is good building practice to install diverter or kickout flashing. While it might not be covered under any installation guidelines or codes, anyone who knows how to properly construct a home would make sure that the proper flashing is present. This is pretty much what I say when confronted with what you are facing.

[patt]

Thanks Peter,

You answered my question a while back in regards to Hardie as well. Do you have access to all sets of their installation instructions?

Brandon

I have either in hard copy or electronic most of the Hardi installation instruction for the last ten years or so. If and when you do any litigation work it pays to have a good library.

The attached file for roofing "best practices" is the only file I have prior to 2005 that calls for a kick out, even the 2006 NRCA Roofing and Waterproofing Manual—Fifth Edition describes the kick out flashing as optional.

Download Attachment: Roof to Wall Flashing.pdf

120.72 KB

[Brandon Whitmore]

Cool,

Thanks Peter.