hausdok

Yep, that's exactly what it means. OT - OF!!! M.

Yes, The stab is the thingy that the breaker snaps onto/into. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, I think there is some merit to what Steven says: I don't have my own website. However, I get quite a bit of work from folks who've read my comments here on TIJ, decided, "That's the guy I want to hire to inspect my home," and then tracked me down by googling me. The pros over on my building science forum at JLC grouse about it when non-pros come on there as well. I tell them that if it bothers them, as soon as they realize it is a DIY'er asking for free advice to just sign off that thread and not to respond to it. Those who care to can respond, those who don't want to can ignore. That, in and of itself, sends a message. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Might be. It wouldn't concern me; to inhale asbestos from that, you'd have to break off chunks, grind them up into powder and then snort the stuff. That's a lot of effort to go to in order to kill oneself. You'd probably breath more asbestos fiber driving down the interstate on a dry dusty day than you'd inhale there in 100 years. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

That's what it looks like; a BUR with a new roof framed over it and a hole cut in the old deck. OT - OF!!! M.

Hi Everyone, If you, like me, have been experiencing sporadic speed issues with some of the features on the site, I'm sorry. I spoke to Mike B. about it and he says that it's probably some issues with our ISP's servers. I figured that I'd apologize now, since I don't expect that they'll straighten it out before Monday and I won't be back before Tuesday 'cuz I'm going camping for the next couple of days. I expect that Mike will get with the ISP and get it straightened out on Monday morning. Until then, those of us who are affected by it are just going to have to suffer. I'll be talking to you all when I get back. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Is the roof of that house stick-framed with real ceiling joists or are there manufactured trusses where the bottom chords are being used as ceiling joists. If the latter, I'd think twice about putting a floor in there and then placing a lot of weight on that lower chord unless you plan to add some joists so there isn't weight actually bearing on the truss chord. If there's blown-in in those "tight" areas there's probably a way to get in there. Look for an area just large enough to squeeze through. It's usually the case around here that one has to literally move the insulation aside and then lower one's body between joists nearly to the ceiling and do a yoga-like move to get into those. They're a real pain - literally - getting in and getting out. You don't want to shoot it blind into those areas because you're liable to screw up the ventilation. How are you going to make up for the reduced R-value in the area you remove the insulation from; use custom-cut R-7 foam panels installed against the ceiling and stacked? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

It's probably just a cleanout. It shouldn't be a problem as long as it doesn't turn into a gusher whenever a toilet is flushed or the washing machine starts pumping out water. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

A bill introduced in the Michigan house or representatives on September 2nd (HB 4162) isn't finding much support. The bill prohibits a home inspector from holding a professional license in other professions such as electrical or plumbing. Some Michigan legislators are calling it "a solution looking for a problem" and "feel good" legislation. To read more, click here.

John, I agree with you, it's not the best recommendation; but, early in this gig and long before I'd met Pracht, I'd looked into a 24-year old gas furnace one day and saw a hole in the back of the heat exchanger that was about the size of a 50-cent piece. I straightened up, declared that there was a hole in the heat exchanger and that the furnace was a CO hazard and told my client that it needed to be replaced. This was one of those inspections where the listing agent "was just passing by" halfway through the inspection and was standing nearby in the basement talking to the selling agent. When he heard me declare that the furnace was a CO hazard, he come over to us and said, "That's nuts; that furnace was just serviced. If there were a hole in the heat exchanger these folks would be dead right now." I just handed him the flashlight and said, "See for yourself, back wall of the second chamber from the left." He bent down, took a look, stifled a curse, handed me the flashlight and said that he was calling the tech that had serviced the furnace right away. Then he got on his cell and went outside. After he went outside, we all could hear him ranting on the phone at the HVAC firm, even down in the basement. A few minutes later, he came back inside and said to me, "The furnace company says that there is nothing to worry about as long as there is a proper 10 to 1 combustion ratio and a clear flue. Did you know that and measure the combustion ratio?" I responded, "Yeah, I know about the 10:1 ratio deal but nope, I'm not going to measure the exhaust gas. I'm not a furnace tech, I'm a home inspector. I did test the exhaust and got acceptable readings, but there's no way you'll convince me that a hole the size of a Kennedy half dollar in the back of a furnace that's 4 years beyond it's expected service life, that wasn't there when it was manufactured, is acceptable. You might be able to convince them though (motioning to the clients who were standing there listening)." He realized that I wasn't listening to "the code" that he was sending so he turned it on the selling agent whose transmitter picked it up right away. I went back to what I was doing but glanced at the clients and gave them a roll of my eyes as if to say, "What a maroon; can you believe this dildo?" They got it, within ten seconds of the selling agent trying to retransmit the code to them, the husband cut him off and said, "Hey, this is why we hired this guy. The furnace is obviously shot. If the seller isn't willing to replace this furnace when we've offered more than the asking price for this house, he can try selling it to the next person because we won't be buying it." I just continued on with what I was doing. They stood in there arguing for at least five more minutes before the couple caught up to me, the selling agent in tow and the listing agent having left. That hole was big enough that you'd expect that all of us standing there would have been overcome by CO poisoning but we weren't. After that job, I've always felt like I was splitting hairs when I found small cracks in heat exchangers and wrote them up. I write 'em up anyway; after all, they allegedly weren't there when the furnaces were made,...or were they? Everyone, Thanks All for your responses. I was pretty sure that I wasn't doing anything differently than most other inspectors and I was right. The client trusts me (I've done four inspections for his family), so it was pretty much up to me to fess up if I'd screwed up. He listened to my explanation and agreed that there was no way I could have known about the crack. I also explained that, per the terms of the contract, heat exchanger cracks aren't covered, but that I'd rather refund his fee, if it would ease his pain, than to have a customer that's unhappy with my service. He said that he had no expectation that I should bear responsibility for it when he contacted me, but that he did want me to know about it, because it seemed like such a simple thing to do - remove two screws to look behind that switch (...and it is, I'm thinking about adopting it as part of my procedure) - and he wasn't sure if I'd done that or not. He'd remembered me taking something off the furnace in his Dad's house (the heat shield) but couldn't remember what it was. He said that he knew I'd accept responsibility and do the right thing if I'd messed up, so he refused the refund, saying that he trusts me and accepts my explanation. He and I are solid. I was pretty confident that you guys would spank me pretty hard if I'd screwed up. If I had, I'd be mailing him a check to cover the cost of a new furnace right now, regardless of the terms of the contract. You guys are what makes TIJ such a great resource. Thanks for being part of the TIJ family. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Jeez, I must be getting black holes in my reading to have missed that. Crimeny, how embarrassing. I just crapped my Depends. [:-paperba ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Yes, it's very old - 34 years (K is September, not October (They don't use the letter I). Those things have an expected service life of about 10 to 15 years from the date of installation when properly cared for. It sounds like you've probably either lost one element or the dip tube has broken off - either way, it should have been replaced a couple of decades ago. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi All, Had a situation yesterday where a client shot me an email to tell me that when he'd finally gotten around to getting the 14-year old furnace on the house he bought serviced, as I'd recommended, that "as soon as the technician opened up the furnace he found a crack in the heat exchanger." I drove over there last night thinking that as soon as I took the cover off that unit that there would be a crack visible. There wasn't. I looked and looked but couldn't see a crack. "Where's the crack," I asked the client. "Behind there," he said, pointing to the bakelite plate behind which I'd find the limit switch if I were to open up the unit. "Well, that explains it," I answered, "I'm only doing a visual inspection on these furnaces and I wouldn't have removed that component to look inside. Other than to remove the cover, about the only thing that I ever remove is the heat shield, if there is one, so that I can get a better look into the combustion chambers." Just to see what kind of crack he was talking about, I pulled the switch to look behind it. There, right at the edge of one of those dimples in the exchanger elements, was a crack. Not a wide crack, mind you, but one that I could feel with the tip of my finger and see. the sides of the crack were slightly offset from one another. It seemed odd to me that a service tech would have pulled that - it's almost like the guy knew what he'd find. Thinking about that crack afterward, I had the sneaky suspicion that if anyone stuck the rubber handle of a screwdriver through that opening and jammed it sideways a little bit that they might have been able to cause that crack; but, not seeing any tool marks anywhere I knew I didn't have a prayer in hell of proving that. Wish I'd asked the client if he'd been there when the HVAC guy pulled that switch though. I reassembled the furnace and explained to him that, not excusing the fact that there is a crack, I thought the furnace company might be overstating their case. Then I explained to him what I'd heard from Ellis Pracht, The Heat Exchanger Expert; that allegedly about 95% of all furnaces have cracked heat exchangers, that the HVAC industry knows it, and that folks aren't too concerned with it because, when the system is running and the fan is on, that the exchanger is under positive pressure, and, if the flame is adjusted to a good 10 to 1 combustion ratio that there is practically no CO being produced and that it was unlikely that it would get into the air of the house unless there was a serious flue obstruction. He told me up front that he doesn't intend to replace just the exchanger as recommended by the tech because it costs about half of what a new furnace would costs; so, if he must he'll install a new furnace. I explained that the new furnace was the way to go but if he opted not to do that right away for some reason he should at least get the HVAC guys back in to check the air/fuel ratios on the furnace to ensure it's burning cleanly and install a couple of really sensitive CO detectors. OK, that's what happened, but the question isn't about the recommendation I made to him - which I'm kind of uncomfortable about - or even about the crack - it's about how far any of you go to look inside one of these heat exchangers. Below this switch/sensor there is a narrow metal shield. Even with a one of Jim's long strips of mirror, I doubt that anyone could have seen the sensor or the crack above it; I would have had to use a See Snake or something similar to get up into the area where that switch is, or done what Pracht is always talking about, pull the plenum on top and looks straight down into the unit or pull the air handler blower from underneath, shinny into that return plenum and look up into the furnace with a flashlight. Or I could do what that particular HVAC tech did and pull that limit switch and look through that 1-1/2-inch wide by 2-1/2-inch long hole. Most of that, with the exception of pulling a heat shield off and using mirrors to look up into the heat exchanger is not how I'd been taught to inspect these things and now I'm wondering if a lot of guys pull these sensors. What say you all? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Shoot an email to hausdok@msn.com with the subject line "insulation info needed" and I'll attach a US DOE fact sheet to it that should help if the listing agent bothers to read it. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

By Mike O'Handley, Editor- TIJ Experienced Washington State Inspectors, did you make the deadline to be grandfathered and to receive your new home inspector's license, or beginning tomorrow will you have exactly 10 months left to complete all state licensing requirements or be forced to shut your doors on July 2, 2010 until you've done so? If you are an experienced home inspector reading this and your first response is, "What the...?" You're not going to be happy with what I have to tell you - you've missed the boat. Here's why: During the transition period as licensing is phased in there are three categories of inspectors. Very new inspectors - Those who hadn't actively performed home inspections on or before June 12, 2008. Newer inspectors - Those that had less than 2 years in the profession and fewer than 100 home inspections completed as of June 12, 2008. Experienced inspectors - Those with at least 100 home inspections and proof of having been in the business for 2 years before the effective date of the law, June 12, 2008. To be grandfathered, an experienced inspector had to prove to DOL that he or she had completed more than 100 inspections and been in the business at least two years prior to June 12, 2008. Once the experienced inspector had proven that to DOL, the inspector was allowed to be licensed by merely passing the National Home Inspector exam and a Washington State Home Inspectors' Exam. If an "experienced" inspector hadn't met all of the grandfathering requirements by today, the inspector essentially lost his or her "experienced" status and is now relegated to the ranks of the "newer" inspectors; as such, the inspector has until July 1, 2010 to complete all requirements that "newer" inspectors and "very new" inspectors must meet. Something else takes place at midnight though, if you are a "very new" inspector in Washington state, and you haven't yet completed all of the training and experience requirements, you must shut down operations until you've met all licensing requirements. Fail to do that and get caught, and you're subject to a significant civil fine levied by the Department of Licensing. Is this going to change the face of home inspections in Washington State overnight? No, absolutely not. "Experienced" inspectors and "newer" inspectors are still allowed to practice during the transition period between now and July 1, 2010; they just aren't allowed to advertise or hold themselves out to be "licensed" inspectors until they've completed all of the training requirements, been tested and have received their license. For these two categories, July 1, 2010 is their make or break day - if they haven't completed those requirements by then, they must shut down their operations until their license has been issued. There is actually one other significant change that takes place at midnight; that's the fact that all inspectors in the state will have to comply with a single standard of practice. That's pretty significant, because up until now inspectors who were members of various competing organizations only inspected to their own association's standard of practice, which the state could not enforce. Now, even independents - those inspectors that aren't members of any organization and make up about 2/3 of all inspectors in Washington state - are required to follow the new Washington State Home Inspectors' Standard of Practice and comply with all other administrative procedures required by the new law. Tonight there are inspectors in Washington State that are breathing a sigh of relief that they got everything done in time and now have their license. Tomorrow there will be some who are going to be upset that they'll now have to spend thousands to get trained over the next ten months. Which one are you?

Yeah, I see that all the time. A week or so ago I looked at a brand new home where a year ago the neighbor begged the builder not to trim this monstrosity that was leaning over the property line onto her lot. Being an obliging fellow, he built the fence up to both sides of the thing and actually molded the shape of the fence to fit it pretty tightly so tha even a dog couldn't get through. Well, now she'd having a lap pool put in and the code guy told her that she had to have a contiguous fence around her back yard. What's she do? Instead of trimming away just enough of what's on her side of the property line, so that the fence can be completed, she goes two feet onto the other side of the property line and hacks away at the base of the tree/shrub - whatever the thing is called (looked something like lillac to me) - and left this big ragged hole in the fence line and fully one third of the thing missing. Now she wants the builder to finish the fence. Pretty cheeky! ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Editor's Note: Though appliances are outside the scope of an inspection in many jurisdictions, more than 100 people have been injured by these ranges so TIJ is providing inspectors this information so that they can warn clients and sellers about this danger. CPSC Alert #09-333 Frigidaire, a division of Electrolux Home Products Inc., of Augusta, Ga, in cooperation with the CPSC has voluntarily recalled the following product. Consumers should stop using the product immediately unless otherwise instructed. Name of Product: Certain Frigidaire and Kenmore Elite Smoothtop Electric Ranges Units: About 200,000 Hazard: Depending on the model, the surface heating elements can: 1) turn on spontaneously without being switched on; 2) fail to turn off after being switched off; or, 3) heat to different temperatures than selected. This poses a fire and burn hazard to consumers. Incidents/Injuries: Frigidaire has received 126 reports of incidents, including four reports of minor burns and two reports of minor property damage. Description: This recall involves Frigidaire, Frigidaire Gallery, Frigidaire Professional and Kenmore Elite smoothtop electric ranges with rotary knobs and digital displays. The following model and serial numbers are included in the recall: Frigidaire (Serial Number Range VF122xxxxx - VF831xxxxx) and Models Beginning with Model Numbers: 790.30472400, 790.30473400, 790.30473401, 790.30474400, 790.30479400 Serial Number Range: NF401xxxxx through NF610xxxxx FEFBZ90GC FEFLMC55GC FEFLZ87GC GLEF396AB GLEF396AQ GLEF396AS GLEF396CQ GLEF396CS GLEFM397DB GLEFM397DQ GLEFM397DS GLEFM97FPB GLEFM97FPW GLEFM97GPB GLEFM97GPW LEEFM389FE PLEF398AC PLEF398CC PLEF398DC PLEFM399DC PLEFMZ99EC PLEFMZ99GC PLEFZ398EC PLEFZ398GC Kenmore Elite (Serial Number Range VF122xxxxx – VF334xxxxx) and Models Beginning with 790.99012 790.99013 790.99014 790.99019 The model and serial number can be found by opening the range drawer at the base of the unit. Sold at: Sears and other national chain and independent retailers nationwide from June 2001 through August 2009 for between $1,000 and $2,500. Manufactured in: United States Remedy: Consumers should stop using the recalled ranges immediately and contact Frigidaire or Sears to schedule a free repair. Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Frigidaire at (800) 449-9812 between 8 a.m. and midnight ET Monday through Saturday or visit the firm’s recall Web site at www.smoothtoprangerecall.com. Consumers who purchased their products at Sears should call Sears at (800) 449-9810 between 8 a.m. and 10 p.m. ET Monday through Saturday. CPSC is still interested in receiving incident or injury reports that are either directly related to this product recall or involve a different hazard with the same product. Please tell us about it by visiting https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/incident.aspx Click to Enlarge 47.82 KB Click to Enlarge 57.32 KB

Editor's Note: Though appliances are outside the scope of an inspection in many jurisdictions, more than 100 people have been injured by these ranges so TIJ is providing inspectors this information so that they can warn clients and sellers about this danger. CPSC Alert #09-333 Frigidaire, a division of Electrolux Home Products Inc., of Augusta, Ga, in cooperation with the CPSC has voluntarily recalled the following product. Consumers should stop using the product immediately unless otherwise instructed. Name of Product: Certain Frigidaire and Kenmore Elite Smoothtop Electric Ranges Units: About 200,000 Hazard: Depending on the model, the surface heating elements can: 1) turn on spontaneously without being switched on; 2) fail to turn off after being switched off; or, 3) heat to different temperatures than selected. This poses a fire and burn hazard to consumers. Incidents/Injuries: Frigidaire has received 126 reports of incidents, including four reports of minor burns and two reports of minor property damage. Description: This recall involves Frigidaire, Frigidaire Gallery, Frigidaire Professional and Kenmore Elite smoothtop electric ranges with rotary knobs and digital displays. The following model and serial numbers are included in the recall: Frigidaire (Serial Number Range VF122xxxxx - VF831xxxxx) and Models Beginning with Model Numbers: 790.30472400, 790.30473400, 790.30473401, 790.30474400, 790.30479400 Serial Number Range: NF401xxxxx through NF610xxxxx FEFBZ90GC FEFLMC55GC FEFLZ87GC GLEF396AB GLEF396AQ GLEF396AS GLEF396CQ GLEF396CS GLEFM397DB GLEFM397DQ GLEFM397DS GLEFM97FPB GLEFM97FPW GLEFM97GPB GLEFM97GPW LEEFM389FE PLEF398AC PLEF398CC PLEF398DC PLEFM399DC PLEFMZ99EC PLEFMZ99GC PLEFZ398EC PLEFZ398GC Kenmore Elite (Serial Number Range VF122xxxxx – VF334xxxxx) and Models Beginning with 790.99012 790.99013 790.99014 790.99019 The model and serial number can be found by opening the range drawer at the base of the unit. Sold at: Sears and other national chain and independent retailers nationwide from June 2001 through August 2009 for between $1,000 and $2,500. Manufactured in: United States Remedy: Consumers should stop using the recalled ranges immediately and contact Frigidaire or Sears to schedule a free repair. Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Frigidaire at (800) 449-9812 between 8 a.m. and midnight ET Monday through Saturday or visit the firm’s recall Web site at www.smoothtoprangerecall.com. Consumers who purchased their products at Sears should call Sears at (800) 449-9810 between 8 a.m. and 10 p.m. ET Monday through Saturday. CPSC is still interested in receiving incident or injury reports that are either directly related to this product recall or involve a different hazard with the same product. Please tell us about it by visiting https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/incident.aspx Click to Enlarge 47.82 KB Click to Enlarge 57.32 KB

Easily remedied without hacking into the roof at a half dozen places. Click to Enlarge 3.33 KB http://www.airvent.com/pdf/installation ... nstall.pdf http://www.airvent.com/pdf/installation ... nstSht.pdf ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, It sounds like you've got a double-whammy there; aluminum wiring plus FPE panels. They are concerned with aluminum wiring reacting with incompatible switches and receptacles so they are adding short lengths of copper wiring to the ends of all of the aluminum conductors, using special connectors, and then the actual contact between the conductors and the switches, receptacles and fixtures will made with copper. It's cheaper than re-wiring the entire complex with copper wiring by a long shot. Ground bars are nothing special. You're exactly right, it's nothing more than a metal bar that's screwed to the inside of the enclosure and the equipment grounding conductors are terminated on it. They are sold in longer lengths and when an electrician needs one that's shorter, he or she measures off what's needed and then uses a hacksaw to cut it to the correct length. The code guy might be stuck on wording someplace that says one can't use something in a panel unless it's listed and labeled for that panel; however, I think that being that anal over a ground bar is taking it too far. Any muni guy being that obtuse must be either a rookie or soft in the head. Your HOA is literally playing with fire by not replacing those Stab-Lok panels. It's time to fire that HOA board and elect a new one. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Sure, go for it, although I'm amazed anyone would want to use any of my blather. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Most entenna wire is pretty thin, too. The wire they use for barbed wire is pretty strong stuff. If it were something like that, I can imagine it being used as a tension chord between two rafters. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Jeez Jeremy, I know it's tough breaking into this business - we've all been there - but please don't become low-ball central. We're here to help you do better than that. A guy recently protested my price of $520 on a job. He works for a very large firm where most of my referrals come from, so I'd automatically given him the same 14% discount I give all employees of that firm. Nonetheless, he still felt the price was too high. He told me that his realtor had assured him that he could get the house done far cheaper and that $500 would be the absolute tops that should be paid for an inspection of a home that size. Here's my response to him: Can you find a cheaper inspector? Absolutely. In fact, I can find you a guy that will inspect your home for $150 if you want. Will his inspection be as thorough as mine or his report be anywhere near what mine is? Absolutely not. Let me tell you a dirty little secret about the home inspection business that most consumers don't realize; about 80% of new inspectors that enter the business this year will not survive more than two years in the business. Most will leave because they don't know how to price their services and they won't be able to make enough to survive. Some will be incompetent and when customers and realtors realize it and spread the word about them, they won't be able to garner enough work. A few will probably get sued and lose their shirts because they'd been more worried about currying favor with real estate folks, in order to get future referrals, than they'd been about taking care of their clients. Within the profession, this isn't a secret. It means that at any given time the most experienced and competent inspectors are greatly outnumbered by new inspectors who're charging rock bottom prices; in order to lure in consumers that somehow have the impression from their agent that all inspections are the same. It doesn't surprise me that a realtor told you that it's possible to get the inspection cheaper. Some realtors always push certain inspectors and the fees those inspectors charge is often far less - sometimes less than half - of what very experienced inspectors like myself will charge you. Does that mean that those inspectors are always going to be incompetent? No, sometimes those realtor-referred inspectors are top notch guys; and the only reason that they are charging far less than anyone else is because they know they are inexperienced and they need to get more work in order to develop more experience, so that eventually they'll be able to charge a more realistic price for their services. However - and this is the real secret - more often than most realtors would like to admit, the reason that many realtors refer the cheaper guys is because the cheaper guys do a quick, not-too-in-depth inspection and write a not-to-critical report that won't kill the deal. The agents put together a small list of inspectors like that and that's the list they provide to their clients. As long as an inspector continues to inspect without going to in-depth, and as long as the inspector coaches the inspection presentation in language that is "friendly" to the house and won't kill the deal, the agent will continue to refer customers to that cheaper inspector. Guys like myself who refuse to play that game? We're not on those lists. Your co-workers that referred you to me have already told you what kind of inspection I do and what kind of report I write. There are Yugo inspectors and there are Lexus inspectors. You can easily find a Yugo inspector to do a home but don't be surprised if he or she, due to inexperience, misses something that later costs you the equivalent of the price of a Lexus. I'm waiting for an email confirmation back from a prospective client. If he can't confirm that slot, you've got it, otherwise, we can book the following day. It's your decision; let me know what you'd like to do. He emailed me back to book the inspection less than an hour later. Sorry, Dude, but most of us probably use similar language to help prospective clients understand that hiring home inspectors isn't like interviewing someone for a position at the local burger whopper. When they hire us and then tell their friends, co-workers and relatives about their inspection, doesn't it make sense that they're liable to also tell them how to avoid the pitfall of hiring the cheap guys? Do you really want to be lumped into that basket and be that guy? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

2x162 = 324, not 334. It was 334 miles one way. I was working but not inspecting. My son, my nephew and I did a tear off and re-roof for a friend. I should probably re-think my "anything for a buck" philosophy. Jeez Chad, You already knew that I'm incapable of doing fourth grade math, did you have to remind me? So, if I've got it right, that's 668 round trip. Wow, for me, that'd be a distance surcharge of $990 and way too much saddle time; my back'd be a mess by the time I got there. I'd probably tell 'em to fly me down, put me up in a hotel and buy all of the meals and pay all transport to and from the airport before I'd go that far for a job - any job. You've got some stones there Mr. Fabry. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

I like Kurt's answer but my first impulse, until I heard it was like barbed wire without the barbs, was an old radio antenna. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike