kurt

Well, apparently there's something you don't know. Here's where everyone's missing the boat. Go back to #1 in my other post. Design the roof. If, after designing the installation and carefully considering all the variables, sketching flashing, and getting it all on paper, THEN one chooses material. If you had said "I've sketched out all the details, here they are, and I'm thinking of TPO", I might have another take on this. Choosing material and then designing the roof is backasswards. It's how roofers do it. They got a product, they force that product into contortions. I don't recall anyone talking about their design. Depending on the design, I might choose any of the materials under discussion. EPDM, TPO, PVC are great for large open applications with lots of access. Small, concealed areas, lots of angles and vertices, drip edges, decks on top, etc., etc.....that calls for something else. The whole idea of design is lost on everyone, including me, until about 17 years ago when I was schooled on how to actually think about roofing. The industry reinforces this with all the emphasis on materials, not design. That's why I said get tight with a PM that works for a large firm that does hospitals or schools; those guys get design, and by association, material selection. A large scale project I had the opportunity to visit recently scrapped TPO in favor of two layers of mod bit due to a bunch of hard to access details. Redundancy is lousy in some things, but its pretty darn cool with roofing. Everyone gets hung up on materials, and then they figure out design. Backasswards. So, there is something more to know than what's already in one's head.

Certainly, low slope roofing offers more opportunities for problems. But, everyone's got it wrong, including Fabry. It doesn't matter how many acres he's applied; what he's saying indicates he's not aware of a few things about mod bit. The observations about EPDM are spot on. It's always pulling like a drum skin someplace or another, and shear delams are common. It's the stuff one puts on 12 acres of GM factory roof, not a tight little bay roof under a deck. Same with TPO. I've heat welded enough seams and seen it come apart in enough situations that I don't care about old American Legion Halls holding up OK. It's an American Legion Hall, not a bay under a deck. TPO as a material is a miracle; it's getting it to all lay down sweet and clean that's gets problematic. Especially on a little bay roof under a deck. Fiberglass works. The problem is working with fiberglass. Anyone every done a layup on a boat? The flashing components are problematic in curiously interesting ways. But, go ahead. Use fiberglass or TPO. Experiment. I love other people's experiments.

EPDM is what ex roofers like. Maybe it's the fumes. The stuff is miserable.

Oh yeah.....and Bison Deck Support Systems And Dow 790 and 795 Silicone for fine tuning. Everyone here should hang around with architects that do schools and hospitals. Find the project manager/architect in the firm in charge of roofing details. They know. They're the only folks I can talk to about this stuff without getting a major burr in my ass.......

OK, you're telling me you're going to take 90 mil material with solvent welds that we know fail...... and stick it under a deck. That's what you're saying, right?

It is labor and equipment intensive. Don't you use air welders down there when applying TPO? You'd put a deck on TPO? Really? We'd take a material with barely a decade of market introduction and trust it? "Because you can change it yourself when needed"......Why would anyone choose a material that required changing? I'll say it one more time. Mod Bit. It's unglamorous. It's sold by orange aproned aisle monkeys. It's the hack material of every gap toothed jack legged moron roofing mope in the world. We all see it slammed and jammed in the most idiotic manners imaginable and we all see it leaking and ponding and...and...and.... And it's cheap and easy to install. A hundred dollar torch, a knife, and a fifteen dollar masons trowel are all the tools you need. It can take a deck load. Folks unfamiliar with flat roofing go for all the exotic materials thinking high tech fancy material is the magic. Wrong. We fix stupid crap on really expensive yuppie houses with flat roofs in Chicago where it goes from 20 below zero to 105 in 5 months. We use modified for all the reasons everyone else seems to think are bad. It welds to heavy gauge sheet metal flashing superbly. It forms into all sorts of shapes. There are a multitude of pre-made boots and details readily available if only one knows where to look. We put this new aluminized coating on it that's almost like a galvanized finish; approved for loads and traffic. Stuff lasts forever. But, don't take my word for it. Use the high tech stuff. All the folks with minimal experience in flat roofing think it's cool, so it probably is.

For Gods sake no. It's not user friendly. It's about as non-user friendly a material there is. Ex roofers all like EPDM for some reason. Cary is an ex roofer.

They don't even need maintenance. I'm looking at buildings now that I looked at 28 years ago with the same damn roof system. They're fine. Forget the myth of statistical lifespans. First and foremost.....Roof Design. Yes, roofing needs to be designed. It's not complicated. The single best book I've ever found on this topic is "Problems in Roofing Design", but McCampbell down in Tennessee. Of course, it's out of print. Design flashing details correctly, they work. Second.....Drainage. Roofing performs as well as it drains. Flat roofing has to drain. 1/4" per foot is fine. Even 1/8" is fine. Just make sure it drains. Third.....Installation details. It's not hard. Follow the instructions on the pack. 26 gauge keynar coated galvanized sheet metal for all flashing details. We order custom profiles from a CNC sheet metal shop. Sheet metal flashing rules. Follow the specs that every mfg. has for their materials, which if you collect a lot of them, you start seeing are all the same thing. Prime all sheet metal before heat welding to it. That's it. It really isn't complicated. Stuff lasts forever. Of course the mfg. and installers like you thinking that there's a statistical lifespan for their material. Of course they do.

The professor is living in the past. The roofing industry figured out every last problem with flat roofs 30 years ago. The problem is with installers. Chicago is nothing but flat roofing. Do it right, which isn't hard, they last forever nowadays.

TPO is what I'd put on 6 acres of GM factory roof or similarly large scale operation. Of course TPO would work, but I just don't like it for small stuff needing fine tuned details. Not a fan of spreadable roofing either. I know it works, but it isn't for me. Personally, I'd go torch mod bit (APP, not SBS) and sheet metal flashing details. (Unless I got the general image wrong.....got any pictures?) There's hundreds of square miles of mod bit in Chicago, I know how to work it, and I'm most comfortable with it. Go with your skill set, I always say.....

Ratios sound good, but don't mean much without a spec on the mix. We do about 8' centers; those at least crack in the control joints.

That's my guess. Solenoid down in there somewhere.

No.

I like the underslung lavs and split valves w/the marble tops everywhere. I like the grey palette. The drive border and layout is pretty slick. Nice infill. Really nice.

Nicely done. I call that nicely proportioned, i.e., all the elements balance. Can you share what the puppy cost?

And personally, I wouldn't get hung up on thinking I needed some kind of mold specialist to strip the place. It's basic demo. Put it in a dumpster. Yes, I know, this horrifies the mold removal contractors. That's OK. They're a bunch of shysters.

So, it's Federal stuff. One thing we've found when changing these things out of condominiums like you describe...... New panels with new breakers = suddenly stuff that worked OK is tripping breakers all the time. That's because the old breakers didn't work. We figure in a fudge factor of a couple grand to cover rewiring and reconfiguring circuits so loads are balanced and breakers aren't tripping. This is an object lesson in how professional tradespeople aren't necessarily the bedrock of knowledge. Can you imagine writing a letter stating it's OK because everyone else has one too? The guy is the realtor's monkey.

You got a mold farm down there. Drywall is the ultimate mold food. Finish a basement with drywall without considering vapor and moisture movement, you get mold. Glass block in your climate? Condensation and mold. Older house? You probably have some cracks in the foundation that let water in. Stains and mold. Personally, I'd strip the joint out. Funky finished basements don't necessarily add value, and in this case, it subtracts value.

My first thought was exactly that; how would one install a moisture barrier? It's not the fault of the software, but it is a fault of the general industry structure.

Yes. Unless it's a Federal Stablok or Zinsco, just leave the panel and get the connectors right. Chicago's got tens of thousands of condos with panels in closets, and while I find it stupid and wrong for lots of reasons beyond fire, there's no compelling evidence that panels in closets is any more hazardous than lots of other things. And agreeing with Katen, AFCI's are not a substitute for good wiring practices.

That means XPS foam, no studs, and if I was going drywall, I'd take a shot with DensGlass. Same here, and I agree with all the rest of it. The guy isn't saying things that are wrong, but it's truth slanted toward disaster. 40 years old should be showing you lots of stuff if it's a disaster. I have a hard time believing it's all that bad from the sounds of it.

When my one pipe system is cranking in the middle of winter, it might hit 1.5 psi. Not sure about vapor vacuum types.

How are you going to finish the basement?

Was it ever established that the minor fungus is active? Anyone take a moisture measurement? It looks like something that could have been on the lumber when it was delivered. I wouldn't recommend a damn thing until one knows what the moisture content of the joist and RH of the crawl basement. It could all be nothing, voila, no need to do squat. Or not. Take a measurement.

Oh yeah, that bizarro world. I wonder about the "french drain". If it's easier than swales, where's it going to drain to? And really, like Katen said, none of this may even be necessary. Just because there's a negative slope doesn't mean anything bad is happening. Absent any obvious or apparent problems, what's the inspiration? Just gotta do something?