Matt Fellman

I see the same thing here down the I5 in Portland... I've always told people it's fine to convert to 3-prong and jump to the metallic box. I believe there's an illustration of this in the "Codecheck" electrical book. I use an old fashioned two-prong "wiggie" from the hot slot to the middle plate screw.... and also check for ground wires at the panel. It's usually in late 50s or early 60s houses.

I wondered how that worked when there were traps installed???? Maybe the sewer scope guy was blowing smoke. I've had the exact same experience and was told the same thing... and wondered the same thing. I'm thinking it must be true or the sewer scoping guys would be using them... as opposed to running around the house for an hour and then eventually pulling a toilet or hauling a camera and equipment up onto a roof.

Seriously, that second picture belongs on the cover of a Home Inspection text book.... I think that's the worst thing I've ever seen.

Here's one I found today setup the way I usually find them... I see now why it threw me. In the end, putting the ground wire on the neutral bus is the same thing as under the lug next to the ground screw. Click to Enlarge 46.66 KB

Thanks Jim, Since I wasn't specifically looking I suppose it could have been the SER with one cut off. That kind of makes sense with the way the panel was setup.

No, definitely not And, I have to concede.... I don't know the terminology of SEU vs. SER?? I'm pretty confident this entry cable is a 2+1... I've seen a lot of the 3+1 with one of the "3" cut off and this isn't it. Thanks

Thanks guys... I think I am mistaken about how they are usually setup. I'll have to check out some I see in the future. I talked to the county electrical inspector today and he agreed with the basic idea here... it's a bit odd but okay. I'm glad I researched it through before I sent the report... I hate looking like a donkey's butt.

Thanks Jim, The neutral buses are bonded via the metal strap between their lower ends. There are two #4 copper grounds - one from the right neutral bus and one from the left ground bus. Both of these meet at the rebar bond beneath (and outside, of course) the panel. What I'm looking for is the bonding of neutrals and grounds inside the panel. Is this accomplished by the green screw from below the left neutral bus being driven into the panel? (I didn't even check if it was tight). Everytime I've seen a Sq D service panel like this in the past there's one of the copper #2 wires under that green screw. It just doesn't seem the screw through the neutral bus into the panel casing is much of a bond but I guess it may be. The way the grounds and neutrals are on separate bus bars makes me think the electrician started off wiring this thinking it was a sub. It was signed off by Clackamas county and I hate to send everyone on a goose chase and end up being wrong. Thanks again, Matt

It's interesting to see everyone's take on working for various professionals. Personally, I love working for lawyers. Can you really see one them trying to weasel out of the contract they signed. It would go something like this: Judge or aribitror to client, "So, you want this contract to be thrown out on the grounds that you didn't fully understand it or read it prior to signing. Remind me again, what is it you do for a living?" Lawyers are the best... once they sign the contract, of course. After that they have to live by it... to a MUCH higher standard than anyone else. It's like one of us buying a house and trying to sue the seller for something.... forget it. You're not going to get very far. It's your average everyday moron with just enough money to be dangerous that we have to worry about.

I'm looking for the neutral to ground bond in this service panel and am not thinking the ground wire in the neutral bus (right side) qualifies. It's approved by the county and is new construction but I'm pretty sure it's wrong... Right side ground should be under green screw? Click to Enlarge 44.74 KB

Keep in mind there are plenty of other ways to "boot leg" a ground aside from the neutral to ground jumper at the outlet. Most of which we would rarely find. You could bond an outlet to a co-ax cable box and likely get a decent ground reading.... it doesn't mean it's a good or correct ground. How many times have you been in an old basement or crawl space and seen a 70 year old ground clamp on a water pipe? Again, wrong but will light the three prong tester in question to read "correct". Personally, I consider the "grounded" readings I get at the outlets compared to the number or ground wires I see at the panel to get a general idea of what's going on. When I get suspicous I'll pull a few outlets to look for the ground to neutral jumper which often pops up when things aren't adding up. One thing I know for sure.... I'll never find every incorrectly grounded/bonded outlet in an older house and make no claim to.

They just measure a voltage difference across the three possibilites and report if it exists. If there's no ground there's nothing to report... therfore the light is out. Hot - Neutral Hot - Ground Neutral - Ground Here's a cool link that has a lot of good info: http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/test.htm#general

Testers always do that when "trying" to cause a ground fault so I don't think it means you have a problem. All of the GFI outlet (and likely breaker) manufacturers specify the only true way to test is with the 'test' button on their equipment. As long as that works it's fine. I would never have found what you describe since I stopped carrying the 3 prong tester with a GFI test button for this exact reason.... and I got sick of moving mountains of stored items to reset the GFI I tripped.

The last I heard of this, switch placement was largely undefined by the code. I believe the terminology is vague at best. I think it falls under the catagory of the code can't address stupid.

1950s ranch - basically all original equipment as best I can tell. The overhead drop goes to the meter, then splits (speculating as I can't see inside the meter) and goes to two panel - one next to the meter and one on the inside of the house. Both have neutrals and grounds bonded. I can't decide if these are both service panels or both subs. It's like there are two main panels. There's no main shut-off at the meter (not sure if that helps clarify). In the end everthing is old and one of the panels is a Zinsco so there was plenty to justify just calling for an electrician to sort it out. I've just never seen anything like it.... any thoughts? Edit - the smaller set of wires at the weather head is coming back from the meter and going to the panel inside the house. Click to Enlarge 42.39 KB Click to Enlarge 38.7 KB Download Attachment: IMG_0116.JPG 62 KB

Kind of drifting here so forgive me.... When I recently wired a sub panel for an addition on my house I was amazed at how cheap the actual panel was. I think it was around $30 off the shelf at HD for a 100A panel with bus bars and the works. Then, I went to buy breakers... $35 a piece for a 15A (Afci, of course) adds up quick. It reminds me of printers... they pretty much give them away and stick it to you for the ink. And, of course, threaten life in prision if you use aftermarket ink (sounding familiar?). I agree with Jim and don't call it out if they fit snug in the panel and the cover fits. I used to call it out and just had too much trouble backing it up. There's just too much of winding, circular road of rules between the UL listing, the manufacturers and the code.

Looks like Hardi Plank... I see waviness fairly often but usually not that bad. I'd guess it was mis-treated before installation - lying at the curb in a puddle of water, etc. It could also be from improper attachment as you say.

I haven't heard of anything but have seen a couple instances of water damage lately... something I was almost sure was impossible with this stuff. Here's a 2001 installation with some damage due to improper clearance. Funny thing is I've probably seen and written up improper clearance 1000 times but had never seen any damage before this. Download Attachment: Hardie Damage.pdf 49.54 KB