Roof Narrative

[Chris Bernhardt]

Hmm,

I guess the model I have been using up to this point was to list the issues in the narrative and then back it up with some pics.

It would be a lot easier for me given the number of pictures I take to say that the roof was installed wrong and then say see pics.

What gets disputed often is whether or not the roof needs replacement now right this minute or is certifiable long enough to get lended on.

The selling side will almost always use the excuse "well, did you see it leaking?" No? "then it doesn't need to be replaced" Only leaking roofs need to be replaced.

All of the language at the end of my monograph with certfication was trying to deal with that.

Around here they could careless what the inspector said and will rush out to get bobs roofing to come over and certify the roof for an eternity with absolutely no warranty of water tightness. How they get away with that I don't know.

We even have inspectors running around certifing roofs. Anything that I have ever seen that needed to certified had a bunch of things wrong with it.

Chris, Oregon

[hausdok]

Roof: 2 layers of 3 tab asphalt composition shingles were present not in satisfactory condition. The overlaying shingles were not fastened in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions. Staples were fastened above the tar strip and were typically not flush and parallel but elevated and angled which reduces its wind resistance to damage. There are several areas where the shingles are wind damaged now and may possible leak. There is moss on the north face of the roof and most of the plumbing vent flashings are rusting. The shingles show generalized deterioration at their edges with some areas of the roof having granule loss. The roofing appears to me to be at the end of its service life and its time to consider replacement. Have a licensed professional roofer evaluate the roof subject to a roof certification, perform repairs needed for a certification and certify the roof for a period of time satisfactory to you. By this I am not assuming that the roofing is certifiable as it may not be by any one roofer for a period of time that you need. In that case the roof will need replacement either now or at least by the end of any certification period. See photos 5, 6, 7 & 8 on page 5. See photos 1 & 2 on page 6.

Well,

I don't know if I even know how to write something in 25 words or less. I'm not sure I'm capable of it. I think if you tell someone that something is wrong, you should explain why in the simplest terms possible so that you're sure that they understand why you are saying it's wrong. Once you've done that, recommendations can be pretty simple.

First, remember that you need to tell people who, what, when, where, how or why. The who is easy. The who is you and there's no real need to say "I found" or "I discovered" unless there's more than one of you inspecting. it's implied by the fact that it's your report.

You're trying to communicate a number of roof issues with one comment and it's confusing. Here's what you said:

2 layers of 3 tab asphalt composition shingles were present not in satisfactory condition. The overlaying shingles were not fastened in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions.

Up to the number ten, write out the numbers. After that, use the actual number. One, two, three, but 11, 12, 13, etc.

So, two layers of shingles were present and weren't in satisfactory condition? OK, what's with the word "present"? Is it possible that if there are two layers present there can be one layer absent? You're not taking attendance here. The reader understands what you're trying to say, but you're making the reader work harder.

Do you actually know the brand and series of shingle? You must, because you've essentially said that you've read the manufacturer's installation instructions. If you must say something like that, say "industry standards". You've essentially been taught the industry standards in your training and it's generic. You'll almost always be able to find something to back it up. Not so when you claim to know what the manufacturer says. That can be embarrassing sometimes.

It's clearer to simply tell them:

There are two layers of asphalt shingles. The condition of the roof is unsatisfactory because it wasn't installed correctly.

Staples were fastened above the tar strip and were typically not flush and parallel but elevated and angled which reduces its wind resistance to damage. There are several areas where the shingles are wind damaged now and may possible leak.

There's that 'were' again. Tell them why it's incorrect:

Some areas are wind damaged because of incorrect fastener placement. The roof may leak.

There is moss on the north face of the roof and most of the plumbing vent flashings are rusting.

These are maintenance issues. If you've started off describing an incorrect installation, and are elaborating on that, why confuse the point by tossing in maintenance issues? These should be dealt with separately(more later).

The shingles show generalized deterioration at their edges with some areas of the roof having granule loss. The roofing appears to me to be at the end of its service life and its time to consider replacement.

OK, now you're sending mixed signals. First you talk about incorrect fastener placement that makes the roof susceptible to wind damage and say that the roof "may" leak, now you're saying that it's worn out and it's time to consider replacement. Which is it? If the roof has already reached the end of it's service life without leaking, there's no need to elaborate on incorrect installation issues that "may" cause the roof to leak. It's either:

There are two layers of asphalt shingles. The roof is unsatisfactory because it wasn't installed correctly. Some areas are wind damaged because of incorrect fastener placement. The roof may leak.

or

There are two layers of asphalt shingles and the roof cover is badly worn. It needs to be replaced now.

Have a licensed professional roofer evaluate the roof subject to a roof certification, perform repairs needed for a certification and certify the roof for a period of time satisfactory to you. By this I am not assuming that the roofing is certifiable as it may not be by any one roofer for a period of time that you need. In that case the roof will need replacement either now or at least by the end of any certification period. See photos 5, 6, 7 & 8 on page 5. See photos 1 & 2 on page 6.

Gobbledygook! If I'd considered the roof repairable, I'd say:

Have a reputable roofer repair it now as necessary.

Don't fall into the habit of recommending or even endorsing roof "certs", because in most causes they aren't worth the paper they're written on. The 'zoids use certs as a way to weasel around your report and you're facilitating their duplicity by recommending one.

Now, the moss and rusted plumbing vent flashings. Make that a separate comment. Title it "maintenance" if you like.

Maintenance: There is moss on the north face of the roof and the plumbing vent flashings are rusting. This indicates lack of proper periodic maintenance. Clean and paint the plumbing vent flashings and remove the moss from the roof. Thereafter, inspect your roof once or twice a year and clean it or touch up these areas as necessary.

So, in the end, if I thought the roof could be saved, I probably would have said something like:

There are two layers of asphalt shingles.

The roof needs repair: The condition of the roof is unsatisfactory because it wasn't installed correctly. Some areas are wind damaged because of incorrect fastener placement and the roof is liable to leak. Have a reputable roofer repair it now as necessary.

The roof needs maintenance: There is moss on the north face of the roof and the plumbing vent flashings are rusting. This indicates lack of proper periodic maintenance. Clean and paint the plumbing vent flashings and remove the moss from the roof. Thereafter, inspect your roof once or twice a year and clean it or touch up these areas as necessary.

or, if thought it was shot, I'd say.

The roof is worn out: There are two layers of asphalt shingles and the roof cover is badly worn. It needs to be replaced now.

Maintain the roof cover: There is moss on the north face of the roof and the plumbing vent flashings are rusting. This indicates a lack of proper periodic roof maintenance. When this roof cover is replaced, make sure that you take better care of it than this owner has. Inspect your roof once or twice a year, don't let moss or algae accumulate and touch up the flashings as necessary.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[kurt]

Mike is excluded from the 25 words or less approach; I don't think his chemical makeup would allow it. Might be all that powdered coffee clogging up your arteries....[:-eyebrow

Maybe it's a regional thing, but folks around here like simplicity; they don't understand roofing, don't wanna understand it, they just want a quick hit description of what it is, and what to do about it.

Pic's can't be argued with. When there's a bunch of stuff you know is wrong, pic's make it simple, folks understand them, and they relieve one of having to go into long narrative descriptions if they don't want to. If you want to, fine, but I've never found it to help.

And, it's always a mistake to care about the inevitable "is it leaking" commentary. I'm not being paid to find leaks; I'm being paid to inspect a roof & describe it coherently. I'm just a professional list maker; I don't really care what happens after I make an accurate list.

If someone wants to ignore everything, that's their prerogative.

[Bill Kibbel]

I don't concern myself with sellers or agents getting opposing opinions from their butt-kissing contractors. In those situations, I tell my clients that their agreement of sale doesn't have a seller's find someone that says the inspector is wrong clause.

It makes for better report writin' when I don't have to think about that crap.

[Chris Bernhardt]

Have a reputable roofer repair it now as necessary.

But what does as necessary or as needed mean?

As the inspector deems? what about the seller or his agent?

I have run in to trouble when I say "as necessary" and leave it at that.

What has happend more then once is that on reinspect the contractor says that he did what the seller told him to do and thats why he didn't do it properly.

When I point out its a bull shit repair the seller says well you didn't specify anything.

What I say now is "have the roofer properly repair the roof". I don't know maybe its just a false sense of security but it makes me feel better as if I can come back and chide those responsible for the bullshit repair. And I am getting a lot of milage these days on the word "proper"

Don't fall into the habit of recommending or even endorsing roof "certs", because in most causes they aren't worth the paper they're written on. The 'zoids use certs as a way to weasel around your report and you're facilitating their duplicity by recommending one..

I agree. A cert means that something is wrong and some fool has stood up to underwrite the fact that its wrong.

Hausdok, do you really mean that the inspectors should eliminate any kind of cert espousement?

What do you say to that client who calls you up to tell you that the seller got a cert for 2 - 5 years and he or she is asking you "What do you think?"

The roof needs repair: The condition of the roof is unsatisfactory because it wasn't installed correctly. Some areas are wind damaged because of incorrect fastener placement and the roof is liable to leak. Have a reputable roofer repair it now as necessary.

I like how you worded it however the reason I tend to give third order explanations is that if I just give a 2nd order one like “the fasteners are installed incorrectlyâ€

[hausdok]

"But what does as necessary or as needed mean?"

It means whatever the trade who's hired to do the job decides, and what the person who hires him/her agrees to. And why would you get in trouble for that? It's not our job to specify how repairs are done and you need to tell that to clients and their realtors. You can describe how something should have been done, in your opinion, but your opinion might not mean squat to a trade - many of whom place home inspectors no higher on the evolutionary scale than a banana slug. If you ask 5 roofers for an opinion on a repair, you might end up with five different solutions. Some might be good, some might be poor or all might be good or all might be poor.

Bottom line. We perform an inspection, report what we see and recommend a course of action. Once the client takes that report and decides on a course of action, it's not our function to hold their hand through the process and it's not our function to decide what any given contractor is supposed to do,....unless the client hires us as a consultant to specify the repair and oversee it's implementation. That's crossing the line in some states or according to the COE of some organizations.

When you write up an issue for improper installation and recommend that a trade repair it as necessary, it's up to the trade to do the job right. You can certainly point the client to sources that will help him/her have a better understanding of what the best practice to do that is, but you don't need to be there to babysit, and, when you do return to reinspect the repair only needs to be adequate - it doesn't need to be the Lexus of repairs. If, in your opinion, the repair is crap, you can say that, but it had better be less than adequate or the "trouble" that your worried about can come from another quarter besides the realtors who are fussing at you to help them assuage a nervous nelly and move the transaction along.

By getting involved in that part of it, and either blessing the trade's work or condemning the trade's work, you could be setting yourself up for a fall later on. At some point, you've got to let it go and let nature take its course. You did what you're supposed to do, you got paid, your job is complete. Now, get out of it.

"Hausdok, do you really mean that the inspectors should eliminate any kind of cert espousement?"

I used to do certs when I first got into this business. I stopped less than a year after I started, because of a worthless cert. I found a hole about 6 inches in diameter on the back slope of a comp roof. The roof was worn out and had leaked at the eaves, causing the sheathing to rot. You could look right down into the soffit. I informed my client and the realtor on-site about that. Later on in my report, I described the roof as worn out, described the hole in the roof and recommended immediate replacement.

My client called me up a few days later. Seems the seller said he'd have the roof certified and my client's realtor recommended that they go with that, so he did, ignoring my report. The roofer subsequently gave the realtor a cert and said the roof was fine and would last another six years. Now the client was calling me up to ask why I was making up stuff to report and thought he should get a refund.

I said, "Oh yeah? I'll tell you what, ask your agent to get the roofer to meet me at the house this afternoon at 2 o'clock and we'll see what happens."

That afternoon, I intentionally arrived about five minutes late. The agent and the roofer were antsy. I got out, and, without saying a word, set my ladder up against the building and climbed to the top. I invited the client to follow me. Once the client was on the roof, I invited the roofer to come up. Then, all three of us walked up to the ridge, where I pointed down the back slope at the hole in the roof and said, "Six years, huh? You're a liar and a crook."

He didn't say a word - only turned beet red. I didn't say anything else. I just walked down to the ladder, stood there waiting for them to climb down and then I climbed off the roof, put my ladder on the truck, walked over to where they were all standing around awkwardly waiting, and said, "Someone here owes me $100 for coming out here. Who's it going to be?" while burning holes in that realtor with my eyes. She stammered something about how sorry she was to waste my time, got out a checkbook and cut me a check on the spot.

I wished the client good luck, got in my truck and drove away, leaving them standing there. I never heard from that client again or had a referral from that realtor again. If I had, I would have turned either down.

"What do you say to that client who calls you up to tell you that the seller got a cert for 2 - 5 years and he or she is asking you "What do you think?""

I tell them that it's been my experience that certs aren't worth the paper that they're written on and are used by realtors on both sides of the transaction as a means of damage control to mitigate my findings. I tell them they're free to make their own decision about who to believe.

"I like how you worded it however the reason I tend to give third order explanations is that if I just give a 2nd order one like “the fasteners are installed incorrectlyâ€

[Chris Bernhardt]

Oregon SOP

Part 2: General Requirements and Limitations

812-008-0202 Purpose and Scope.

(2)(D) State the inspector's recommendation to monitor, evaluate, repair, replace or other appropriate action short of providing construction consulting services.

Words in bold added by me.

Maybe if our SOP was worded this way I would have figured it out a lot sooner.

Chris, Oregon