rjw

FWIW, I emailed the columnist and got a less than thrilling response My email: On Jan 2, 2007, at 7:25 AM, Bob Walker wrote: > In your Nov 18 column on Premier and NOX rods., you left out a key point: was the home in California - or say, Maine? > > Since the reports of thge recall all said they were installed in CA, as a mid-west inspector, it is not an issue I've paid much attention to, and the there are other fiurnaces with "nox rods" (or something like them) which have not been recalled. > > I believe you have done a mis-service to our industry with such a blanket pronouncment of liability. > > You have pushed us over onto the slippery slope: at what point does an HI become responsible for know product recalls? At what point does a recall become widely enough publicized for an HI to be held to this new standard you are seeking to create? > > Respectfully > > Bob Walker > NW Ohio The Response Dear Bob, Your point is well taken regarding the specific locale of the Premier furnace recall. Please forgive that omission. However, I don't think this is going to push any Ohio inspectors "onto a slippery slope." My response in that article begins by stating that home inspectors "are not liable for product recalls notices", but that the case in question was an exception because of the high degree of publicity regarding those furnaces. A critical point in the article, however, is the fact that the Consolidated furnaces without NOX rods typically have observable safety-related problems. Specifically, the heat exchanges are often cracked, and in most cases, combustion exhaust vents from the burner access. These defects are often missed by home inspectors, HVAC contractors, and gas company technicians. Home inspectors should be wary of all Consolidated furnace, regardless of recall notices and regardless of whether NOX rods are installed. Barry Stone

For some reason the EPA links don't paste into this rdit window: Google EPA Lead Paint and pick up appropriate stuff from that site. I include disclaimers with those sorts of links - "I'm not an expert and thus recommend the site based on the general repuation of the publisher," "the info changes" -etc

well, I think 94, from the serial # and the fact it's got the french and english label (post NAFTA?) [on edit - opps, that was in the model # But this is still good info]: The ANSI year isn't in the pic, but is also a good way to come up with an age: I find general 1-3 years after the ANSI year.

So this is newer construction? FWIW, I've never seen a cape with truss roofing, but my area is pretty slow to pick up on trends Of course, the term "cape" is used pretty widely by some folks.

My experience is that "any rust" on b-vent above the roof should be taken into consideration as the first part of the furnace/water heater evaluation. I'll mention a "lot" of rust to the client on the exterior walkaround saying "it could indicate a venting/condensation problem but we need to see more." Then you look for visual signs of venting below the water heater flue bonnet, and/or heat staining on the water risers, condensation marks on the flue connections, condensation stains/marks on the bottom of the draft inducer, rust stains in or below the inshot heat exchangers, etc. If I wasn't prepared to offer additional services (CO/combustion analysis) I'd say that I only recommend using a heating contractor who has been through the National Comfort Institute's training program. (Actually, I say "who has been exposed to carbon monoxde safety analysis training such as by the NCI") (I believe NCI has a "find one by zip code" now on their site (www.NationalComfortInstitute.com If one isn't listed there, give them a call and ask who Jim Davis has trained from your area.) As too how much is significant- it's a judgement call A litle, say less than a 1" - 2" band around the top, usually isn't going to indicate a problem, in my experience. BTW, the "tests" for drafting: smoke, powder, mirror etc don't test draft; they just test for absence of "backdrafting." The only way to determine that there is acceptable minimum draft (-O.01 inwc) is with a gauge. And the proper testing technique. (Winter conditions, with and without exhaust fans running, etc.)

90+ condensing furnaces can easily produce killing amounts of CO, not to mention lower levels that can also cause permanent health problems. I've tested some. Not to mention the fact that even a well adjusted furnace with normal amounts of CO will start prtoducing high levels as the space fills with CO2 displacing available oxygen. For clearances, you ultimately have to check the installation manual.

I happened to think earlier today of an example of how a comma can make all of the difference: "Further expert evaluation is recommended." "Further, expert evaluation is recommended" I believe the first implies the HI is an expert, the second not only doesn't, but reinforces our role as generalists. And if you end up in court, one of the rules is that ambiguous writing will be construed against the person who wrote it.

Try opening a pic in a photo editing program which has gamma correction (Usually in a menu somewhere near adjusting brightness/contrast) and use gamma to "open up" the shadows/dark areas. There can be a lot of information in them. On a couple of occasions I have saved my butt with gamma adjustment of photos taken in crawl spaces.

I recommed taking the CO and Combustion Analysis course from National Comfort Institute. Jim Davis teaches it. He's the fellow who "invented" the whole filed. I don't agree with everything he says, but he is a character with tremendous knowledge. There is an (incomplete) list of heating contractors at www.NationalComfortInstitute.com who have that training. The "correct way?" The way which works. Start by following code, which means following the venting tables, which goes well beyond any SoP I know of. Or start by knowing the basics and knowing what to look for and, perhaps, using a draft gausge. And use your judgment. FWIW, I would consider the furnace visual indicators I posted above as mild, but needing attention. The water heater - definite problem which mucst be fixed. When you see signs of such magnitude, though, you'll usually see also obvious mistakes, like the flue wrapping around the filter slot

Rule 1: the GAMA venting tables are "guidelines:" the producer of the tables states the "designer" of the venting system is responsible for determining the effectiveness of the system as designed. Specifically: the tables disclaimer: LEGAL NOTICE: This information is, in part, a result of research performed by Battelle under the sponsorship of the Gas Research Institute (GRI). Neither GRI, members of GRI, nor any person acting on behalf of either: a.) Makes any warranty or representation, express or implied, with respect to the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of this information, or that the use of any apparatus, method, or procedures disclosed may not infringe privately owned rights; or b.) Assumes any liability with respect to the use of, or for any damages resulting from the any apparatus, method, or procedures disclosed And the software used to develop the tables states: "The user should realize that no safety factors have been included in the VENT - II calculation routines for vent capacities. The results will be reasonably accurate for new, well defined vent configurations under transient-cycling or steady - state conditions. However, the field performance of vent systems can be adversely affected by installation peculiarities, outside wind conditions, house tightness, leaky vents, other exhausting appliance, partial blockage of vent pipe, or other conditions. Therefore, appliance vent designer should use good engineering judgment in making allowances for the various perturbations which may occur in the field. Have you ever run into a combustion appliance operating under "steady-state" conditions? Ever seen a vent that cannot possibly experience "perturbations?" ************************** My venting diagnosis starts with the exterior, looking for rust on the B-vent. Any rust gets a mental note - "significant" rust will be called out. I will usually mention the rust to the client, saying "it raises the possibility of venting issues, but we have to see what's going on inside. I just wanted to mention it so if we see something inside you'll remember what I'm talking about." (I want to be careful to not freak people out unnecessarily. I do the outside first with the client -when rust is there, this is a great confidence booster, especially if/when the furnace or water heater show signs of venting problems, which they usually do if there's rust above the roof.) Also, outside, orientation/clearances of course, but "meeting code" isn't a 'safe harbor' In a development I'm also looking at the condition of protruding Bvent on neighboring houses Or checking the inside of the flue on a chimney for signs of condensation. At the combustion appliances, I'm looking for [any signs of condensation - on the flue, esp the joints, on and under any draft inducer, or "significant" rust inside or under a drafthood. Depending on what I see, I might pull out the draft gauge (Dwyer #460 Air Meter. $35 -40)) But, if I do, I've sentenced myself to (I) creating winter conditions (all doors and windows closed) and (ii) a lot of running up and down stairs to operate exhaust fans, whole house fans, thermostatically controlled attic fans, and also to open and close the attached garage door and any down wind entrance door - all to see if the draft is affected.* (when "dad" is there or some other wanna be inspector or irritant, this is a great excuse to get him out of your hair!) ================ * As a general rule of thumb, if there's a whole house fan, a standard sliding patio door has to be at 18" open before the water heater stops back-drafting. A few need the door completely open ================ Also, once you pull out the draft gauge, be prepared for arguments with HVAC guys who think "smoke" is a way to test for draft. (Last year I had an HVAC guy - big company in my area - hold a match in front of a drafthood -which had no measurable draft with my gauge- blow it out, blowing towards/into the drafthood opening, and then telling me it was "drafting fine. Look at the smoke." It wasn't until afterward that I though of the comment I should have made: "I've heard of blowing smoke out of your ass, I’ve never heard of blowing it into a drafthood!") I don't charge extra for simple draft testing - maybe I should. In other cases, I might recommend adding a full scale CO Safety and Combustion Analysis. That involves an additional charge. Remember - the venting tables are guidelines. they are usually a good indicator, but not always. I'm interested in performance. My testing over the years has taught me that most times (but not always) when I see the visual indicators (rust and condensate stains) or just a stupid installation (like a water heater T'd (not Y'd) into the furnace flue) I'll usually be able to demonstrate a venting problem. And even if I can't show a venting problem at the time, well, weather conditions change perturbations occur, and those changes and perturbations can affect performance. There's a 10 yr+/- house that belongs to a woman at my church. 80+ furnace, b-vent flue. The flue meets the applicable venting tables. (Just barely, but it does) I've tested it on a number of occasions for my own education. Most of the time it's fine. When the wind is 'firm' but a bit gusty from the NW, however, it doesn't vent properly. (in fact, it barely vents.)

My background includes (i) practicing int'l trade law etc for more than a decade (definitely gives me a hot air expertise [:-crazy] - I call myself an attorney in recovery...) (ii) various areas of residential construction before and after the aforesaid. I've been doing inspections about a decade - 3200 + inspections. I've taken the Carbon Monoxide Analysis course from the Building Performance Institute (twice, about 7 & 6 years ago - I don't know if they still offer the course - it took me two times to really start to get it) Bachrach's Carbon Monoxide testing course (about 5 years ago) and the National Comfort Institute's Carbon Monoxide Safety Analysis and Combustion Analysis course, and just did my biannual recertification with them. I don't have numbers on the # of CO tests I've done - probably 400 +/- My views on and knowledge about CO and drafting and combustion is based on that training, that experience, and careful consideration of what my testing results tell me. There are also a few good heating contractors in my area from whom I've learned a lot. (And too many who don't have a clue.) And careful reading of every technical and installation manual I can get my hands on Almost all of my experience is with residential and light commercial natural gas furnaces and water heaters, as well as nat gas stoves and gas log sets and space heaters. I have some experience with propane, and very little with oil burners. Fortunately, the staute of limitations has run on some of my early inspections when I'd just stick the probe in the register, somehow thinking that an equipment catalogue photographer would be a good authority for CO testing procedures. FWIW, a now somewhat outdated protocol for CO Safety testing can be read at http://home.att.net/~cobusters1/coprotocol.htm Please note - reading that protocal without knowing the underlying principles will not qualify folks to really test properly, in my opinion. And the protocol doesn't include combustion analysis, which adds significant information for understanding what's going on and what a combustion devices performace and problems are.

FWIW, it is OK to drill a 1/4 in B-Vent for inserting a CO meter probe - Bachrach tells it's CO class attendees it has letters from the manufacturers.

I was in Tiajuana several yeasr ago on a mission trip, building a "house" (20x20, 2 rooms) in one of the colonias. (The family was moving up from a 7x12 tarpaper shack. The local water supply was a garden hose sticking up out of the ground!) We took a drive down the coast and saw some pretty nice developments. I met a neighbor at the site I was working at. He was a tile setter, commusted daily into the US for his work. After a bit he offered to show me his house. From ouitside, it looked like most of the other , ah, dumps. Inside it was beautiful.

Plus, negative grading will carry water back to the overdig area and increase the load carried by the drain tiles and (might? may? will?) cause premature plugging of the drain tiles. For stuff like this: "Regrading is needed." As noted, good CYA and nobody is going to argue with you.

I don't think the ridge board is needed to support the roof - lots of old houses don't have any ridge board - the rafters just butt together. I think the ridge board (as opposed to a structural ridge beam) is mainly intended as an aid to erection - (remember, we didn't have viagra until just a few years ago) [:-bigeyes

Hmmm, attaching pics, Let's see beard> navel> (little html joke there!) Of course, the furnace pics 01 and 02 (overview and closeup) speak for themselves. Using the rule each 90 turn = 5', it starts with over 20 of effective horizontal flue - it's gonna take a stinking high chimney to provide sufficient rise/height for that run! [On Edit] Thanks, Mike. I really like the resizer in powertoys, but I do most of my image editing in PsP On second edit - hmmm, I have them down to 99k and 95k On third/fourth or something edit: Voila! Download Attachment: DraftProblemsFurnace01.jpg 29.84 KB Download Attachment: DraftProblemsFurnace02.jpg 28.92 KB Download Attachment: DraftProblemsDHW.jpg 32.42 KB

Absolutely no change in the code A rare problem in my area because of the AHJ's, but I would call that out as a significant/major safety hazard. From the Carbon Monoxide Safety Analyses I do, including draft testing, I can tell you that in a two car garage, it takes (roughly, with a lot of variation) about 10 - 20 minutes for the lack of adequate combustion air to start showing up with insufficient draft and shortly there after, rising CO levels in the flue gases. (Any rising CO in the flue gases after a warm up period is a major concern.) Visual clues that this is happening are signs of condensation at the flue connections, and, in severe cases, evidence of condenesation draining back into the draft inducer (I'm assuming atmospheric draft and 80+ furnaces. (Note, the condensation marks can also result from the lack of a post purge cycle in the draft system after the flame goes out - so the diagnosis isn't a slam dunk, visually) Also check closely under the water heater bonnet for debris/rust. I've attached two pics with evidence of flue condensation problems. Neither arose from this situation, and bioth are more severe than what this situation would typically show, but they point out what to look for. (The water heater pic was a beauty - not only did the flue picth the wrong way, and have insufficient rise for the run, and run single wall through an unhconditioned space, but it ran the flue through a sidewall, discharging horizontally with a dryer vent flap over the discharge!)

I not only point out issues, I give my clients my best judgement of how likely I believe the potential problems might arise. (I've already prepared them in my inital talk to understand that uch in the home isnepction biz is subjectiove and involves judgement calls) So, in tha case at hand, I'd point out the deficiency, tell them the reason for the concern, tell them one possible fix (also mentioning different contractors might take different approaches - SOP disclosure, again) and tell them that I believe the likelihood of any rafter splitting is low. I'd recommend they monitor the situation and repair if needed. [something with a more difficult/expensive fix woulkd be handled differently] If they were exhibiting signs of being awake and aware and reasonable, I might also add: "Unless some splitting actually starts, I'd have to really bored before I got around to this one" FWIW, I use code to inform my analyses: but I've seen far to many problems where code was followed, and far too many code shortfalls where there were no problems, to assume that code is any sort of reliable predicter of performance.

FWIW, I see that configuration commoly in older houses in my area and don't believe I've ever seen a rafter spliting (at least obvioulsy) because of it.

I use WordPerfect (currently at X3 version) to produce my reports, in which I can easily enter hyperlinked cross references and a ToC, add images, and directly produce a pdf. It is more versatile, intuitive and stable than Word. And automation with macros is much easier but still powerful. When I have to write simple memos to share with folks, I'll use Word. When I want to process a document, I use WordPerfect.

You might also try the forums for The Taunton Press and Journal of Light Construction. They mainly deal with smaller scale stuff, but many participants are in larger scale construstion.

My daughter started at OSU this year. She tells me there is no doubt. (Little monster never had the least interest in football before going there, I figured I get at least a feww of her tickets. Ungrateful little wench. Grrrrr!)

Assuming a cross connection actually exists, what has to happen for the bathwater to get into the potable water supply? That is, how likely is it?

A lot of great ideas here - but we're missing 2 very important ideas (IMO) 1. Hire a writing inspector to inspect your reports. AKA an English Writing professor/teacher [And, if you want to dig deep, have a lawyer look over some of your work too!] 2. Proofread/reread. Proofread/reread. Proofread/reread. [in proofing this line just now, I corrected two typos!] Right now, as soon as you log off, pull the first report you did in Aug, 2006; the first in May 2006, and the last in December, 2006. In that order, read each slowly and carefully. Be merciless with yourself Find a poorly written passage in each. Rewrite it 3 different ways Find another poorly written passage and rewrite. (If you can't find a poorly written passage, send a copy to me For just $19.99 each month from now to Armageddon....) Good writing takes as much work and time as any other skill Have a friend read those reports as well. After s/he has read them, go through the reports together and tell him/her about the house and it's problems. (BTW, "him/her" is poor usage and writing, IMO. 3 Dog biscuits to the winner of the "Rewrite that paragraph contest)

I agree about uniqueness, but my experience is that most the problems I see aren't. The term "boilerplate" has two different meanings. Many (most?) people think it's just any canned jive. As in your "climatic conditions." {One of my pet peeves is "Due this, then that." Sorry folks, "due to" means owed to, at least to this language lover) But the term is derived from clauses used in contracts over and over because it has been tried (literally) and found to be impervious to challenge. I use the term in that sense: tried and true. It is "boilerplate" because it is good. Of course there are a lot of issues in homes that aren't addreesable with stock phrases and there is no "available" boiler plate. When I first started using one of the SW packages, it had a lot of canned nonsense which I immediately eliminated - extremely poor grammer, sentence fragmentsm ambiguities, etc. In my opinion, that wasn't boilerplate, it was simply canned crap.