kurt

That's what I'm trying to grasp. I can read the formula, but have no intuitive sense of what it means. Moving heat around as steam.....what's it mean? Thermodynamics is not my strong suit.

At some point yes, but I think it's much more involved than simple combustion efficiency. Everyone's talking combustion efficiency. There's efficiency of the "package"; heating system efficiency isn't independent of the building it's in, is it? I'm trying to understand why this large building can be heated so cheaply with a system most of us (me, at least) used to think of as inefficient. I knew that vents were a component of the system that allowed it to work. What I didn't understand until I had the chance to tinker on my own without intervention of building owners/realtors/occupants was how delicately intertwined vents are in getting the system to heat quick and evenly. Changing an orifice from a 5 to a 9 (the difference of about 1/32-3/64 of an inch in diameter) means the difference between a radiator being cold and it heating up instantly. What are the conditions that allow an approximately 400 lb. chunk of cast iron to go from cold to really damn hot in 10-15 seconds? Why does such a small change in vent size mean so much in performance? FTR, I see my share of steam. Two pipe, one pipe, doesn't matter. Most of them are totally screwed up and work for shit. I think the problems come from the same things we see on a lesser scale in single family work....lousy design, no calc's, guys winging it, etc., and those same problems are wildly exacerbated by incompetent trades doing stuff like painting vents and radiators, or never cleaning out the traps on the two pipe jobs, or taking radiators out which throws everything off, or some other combination of things. Also, the line vents are more important than the radiator vents. If the main vents aren't working right, then the radiator vents are having to do the job of both. There should also be vents on the mains where they make the downward drop to become the return. Often, there are main line vents stuck in overheads or walls where you can't even see them; if they're blocked or screwed up, it can totally mess up everything. I think this is a major problem in all those old buildings we see that seem messed up; they've never been maintained like they should be; vents are shot, and no one even knows where they are. All of these systems were originally coal fired monsters. Stoke the boiler, work the coal bed, and just make the thing crank til it whistles. If it got too hot, open a window. Heck, they even piped steam out to my garage for these monster 300 lb. ceiling mount radiators in each garage bay. They must have had this building blasting heat. Shifting to a gas fired model with an entirely different firing and steam cycle, and that probably messes up distribution too.

Surprisingly, very little steam escapes when you get the orifice right. The steam pushes out the air which is nicely humid, but it's not steam or excessively wet. There's the fire, the flash, then it's hot all of a sudden. It's a timing thing. It's freaky. I think I lucked onto a good system. Well, not all luck. I could tell by the pipe it was probably OK. The pipefitting and distribution lengths are impeccable. The radiators are really nice castings; clean lines, not huge and clunky, lotta fins but not the heavy bulbous type. It's beautiful iron, one coat of heat resistant paint.

A common fallacy I once shared. Two pipe is not inherently better. It was attempted because there were totally screwed up single pipe systems. Some folks managed to screw up the two pipes also. Part of my amazement is how incredibly well single pipe systems operate when set up correctly. Instant heat distribution at minimal cost with nice toasty temps and nicely humidified air for the extremely dry plaster lath construction. I've made no claims whatsoever that the system is efficient. I said the package is cheap to operate. The bungalow is a leaky, but not horrible for the age, but it's old forced air, with lousy register placement. I think you're misreading my entire post.

Yes, but it's done with correct orifice sizing. There's 37 or more sizes; depends on mfg. Thermostatic valves are used when some other portion of the system is unbalanced. The idea is balancing it. This isn't always possible with all systems; some aren't engineered or installed as well as others.

I think Lamb has something close to it. The boiler room is nice and toasty, and the entire 1st fl. platform is like a big radiant heat sink. After that, I have no idea. Yes, I always thought insulation was intended to keep the condensing happening in the radiators and not in the long lateral runs. But this one doesn't have any insulation...never did, and the radiators all heat up at the same time, and there's not a single clank, ting, ping, or rattle. Ever. It just gets hot. Quietly. Which I've never experienced before with any steam system. There's almost always a little ping or ghost rattle in every other system I've operated.

Radiant's got to be part of it. The building is a lot of tonnage in steel and masonry. Pipes snake everywhere, they gotta heat up all that mass, and it all goes radiant. But why so cheap to operate?

A couple months, glass block, a lot of white paint, makes for a different boiler room. I installed an RD 1400 microprocessor control system, been fiddling with the vents, and I'm discovering the miracle of steam heat. I know a few guys that wax all crazy about how incredibly efficient it is, they don't know why it went out of style, and how delightfully warm and cozy it makes an apartment. Well, I'm now one of those guys. I'm heating a 5 unit, (approx.) 6600+sf 1929 apartment building for less money than I spend to heat my bungalow, and I keep the apartments @ 72.5degF, and my bungalow is kept @ 65 to keep it from being too expensive. For the apartments that had cool or cold radiators, I've been fiddling with orifice sizing, and I got it so every radiator in the place heats quickly, evenly, and wonderfully. When you get it right, it's like magic. The control kicks on the boiler, it fires for about 7 minutes, there's a "sigh" from all the vents on the condensate returns for about 5 seconds, then there's what I call "the flash". Suddenly, in the space of a few seconds, all those 20 & 30 pound iron fittings on the boiler go from being room temp to too hot to touch, and in an instant every radiator is warm and toasty. In an instant. With no pressure; the gauge never bumps off 0. OK, maybe it's .01 psi, but the gauge doesn't move. (yes, it works, I installed a new one.) It's freaky. In an instant. My building is solid masonry, 14" thick walls, cast concrete coffered 1st fl. platforms with structural terra cotta infill, 2nd fl. platforms are wood frame, wood lath plaster, double hung single panes, storm windows, and not a speck of insulation anywhere. Nothing. It's the poster child for what should be a completely inefficient costly mess of a masonry building. And it heats in cold Chicago weather for surprisingly less than <$300 a month, while maintaining >72degF average temps in all apartments. How? Why? This isn't supposed to work this way. But it does. I can't figure it out. Is there some magic thermodynamic principle I'm missing? Click to Enlarge 57.36 KB Click to Enlarge 51.98 KB

Honestly, I don't know if hydraulics are viewed as superior in the largest view. There are cable systems that are fine. The elevator guys get uppity about their hydraulics and scissor systems, so maybe they influenced my opinion.

I've seen several. They can have all manner of bizarre issues, not the least of which is getting stuck between floors during a power outage. Yes, it happens. An uninterrupted power supply is a good recommendation. If they got the dough for an elevator, they got the dough for a gas powered generator in the back yard. The one in the picture looks antique; no way would I ride that thing. The good one's all use hydraulic or scissor lift technologies. I doubt it's ASME approved. There should be a stamped sealed something or other posted or on the print indicating it conforms to ASME A17.1 Section 5.3. That's the American Society of Engineers code section related to residential elevators.

Kynar coated galvanized won't rust, and you could get it in white. After a third look, I'm not so sure it matters. I might repair it with vinyl cement, quikrete or similar, and do it flush. Finish it by feathering in new stucco.

If you repair it with an extension.....it won't work unless you cut a drip groove into the bottom edge to keep water from simply running back into the wall. What if you repaired it flush and put a simple sheet metal drip cap on it? I like the idea of it draining, but given the look of the place, I'm not so certain it's really necessary.

That's not a bad idea. I see these things occasionally, and it's remarkable how little the soil does move. Even when soil is collapsed, there's rarely significant movement, point being, a retaining wall seems like it would work fine. Would backfilling with sand (after the bag wall sets up) provide any additional value?

If you're in Chicago, your furnace has to be in a closet with fire rated door, weatherstripping, combustion air venting, and all ductwork and equipment isolated from the garage interior. If you have all that, drainage is relatively easy. Install a small condensate pump and pump the condensate to an interior house drain. There will be a little head scratching, but probably only a little.

There's a lot of that in the HI biz.

Will is taking a cue from another individual that has built his business with all kinds of home grown certifications and endorsements. Certified This, Certified That, all endorsed by the Certification Board of Certifiers, and recognized by......who exactly....(?). He called me the other day to chat about split face a bit. I'm not sure why, but I'm always up for a yak, so I listened to him for a while. He wants to be the go-to split face guy. For me, that's kind of like wanting to be the certified EIFS repair guy, which is fine if one wants that sort of gig. Lamb hit the nail accurately.

S'funny, I found one of those last week.

And hairline cracks. None of them have expansion joints, and they crack like crazy. Lotta leaks at the head joints.

I only object to the hayseeds that use the marble on sloping floors in a great show of.....something. I carry a torpedo level in one of my cargo pants pockets. A good one. The 4 footer is out in the truck if I really need it. Better yet, laser levels are cheap now. Put it on the high spot, turn it on, then you can actually show someone what's going on with sloping floors.

Yeah, that one. 2007. Where'd you get that pic?

I forget when we all got together @ Watts. I thought it was more like 8-10 years ago. Find a building component mfg. that would let us tour the plant or otherwise learn something from them, and let's have it in their town. Like the Watts gig.

Bad to the bone. Stunning.

Usually more.

I'd do a meet.

Entities other than the HI profession continue to define what we do. There is strong resistance to hearing from us about what it is we do. Lamb's experience with the Trib is typical. They put out a goofy article disassociated from anything we know to be right, and when confronted with reasonable statistical data contradicting their dipshit article, stick with their idea instead of reality. I've campaigned a number of high profile publications to publish a frank article, or series of articles, about this gig. No takers. Worse than no takers; dismissal. Almost laughing dismissal. We remain somewhat of a joke to just about everyone other than the people we are serving at any particular moment. Everyone's got an idea about what it is we do. "We" don't have an idea about what it is that we do. The "we" in here is pretty consistent in our attitudes, but look out over the rest of the landscape. I agree with Les' about the hero thing, and definitely about the macro negotiation ploy. The former displays all the stuff that would demolish a career in any other endeavor, and the latter puts us in the position of nit picker assholes instead of educators.