Rob Amaral

Jim: Stop cracking jokes.. R

I remember a fellow inspector of mine telling me about the neutral thing. This was a new neighborhood... The entire neighborhood is new. Looked like high heat from lightning.

Joe: I don't have the 'boiler plate' handy here but I ran into this just this week. A circa 1933 house, 'stub-up' steel pipe in boiler room and a copper fuel oil line remnant at the slab. New steam boiler (now gas). I just told the client to call the local FD (MA Fire Depts are pretty good on records of USTs) to see if there was a UST. Bingo. There was. Client wanted to know the ins/outs. I said the tanks last 20-45 years or so (depending) and even to determine if it is leaking or not is not a 'great' way to do so anyways. This one was from the thirties or a bit later.. If it doesn't leak (brand new), I still recommend 'pro-active replacement' of the tank. If it is leaking, there is the potential for soil contamination which can cost $$$$$$$$$ to remediate. Buyer walked. (Didn't like the commuter rail in the backyard every few minutes anyways). Was in Jimmy M territory.. PS-House had 'used' slate on the roof----they'd take the slates off a barn or factory or old schoolhouse and turn them upside down. Some had the original nail holes exposed to the weather. Kooky. I figure some of those slate had been 'in the weather" (out of the quarry) for almost 130-150 years or so.. Pretty good 'shingle life' ..

A mattah of time..ME friends. As my clients from the sub-continent (India) say, "ME is sheety software...".

Mike: I have no way of knowing how deep the pipe is wrapped. I advised them to have the town shut off the water at the curb valve, remove the meter, examine the pipe more closely and try to determine the 'depth' of the damage. Very brittle pipe. Thanks for the FL response. FL is indeed the lightning capital of the US. I'll pass that along.

Ok on the ME bizness. All techie clients of mine agree. Junk it. However, it is not my business computer.. So far, it has been running great since the latest 'tune up'.

BTW, have any of you had experience with 'how far into the ground' this type of damage on the pipe can go?

I ran into something similar this weekend. Copper water service is burned, sintered and damaged. Looked like lightning to me. Clamp felt tight. Download Attachment: IMAGE085.JPG 88.18 KB

The 'red wire' picture makes no sense to me. Looks like the red 'jumper' simply connects 2 breakers to the same bus...and the same circuit. One wire apparently has a load on it, the other doesn't. The picture is very dark on my PC for some reason. I can't see it as well as I wish I could.

You are on the right page with Mr. Holahan (and his website by the way). You sound like you may be a bit confused about steam and 'hot water'. Steam systems 'stay' steam.....what you may be seeing is old 'gravity' 'hot water systems' that are now 'forced' hot water systems. There are fine points to know about both steam and old gravity-now-forced systems. Keep on keepin on... R

I dug up 'why' this subpanel feeder issue I found was wrong. Running a separate equipment ground wire conductor that is not in the same cable as the feeder circuit conductors is improper because it can increase the impedance of the ground fault current and cause the overcurrent device to not trip in the proper amount of time. Has to do with magnetic flux, cancellation, proximity of conductors and a bunch of other voo-doo. I always like to know 'why' something is wrong rather than 'because they say so" types of answers. Shoot the 'why' to the guy who fouled up and you can watch the face blanching... Not fun but necessary.

Mike: Awesome that you would even attempt to post what you did here for me. God bless you. I do have this book and I'm on the way... Thanks for even spending to time to find the book on the shelf. Like a lot of inspectors, I bought a ton of stuff over the years and only seem to go back to a few things once in a blue moon. Once I initially read this stuff, I tend to 'stash' it unless I really need to find it. To be honest, the most common thing I look up is the clearance from a fireplace mantel to the fireplace opening... for some damn reason, I just can't remember it. I found this book and see I've even spent time highlighting it. You'd think I'd remember even owning it. Too busy (which is good but which is also bad). I told my client last night (this was at 630P and 'onsite') that I'd post this on a forum and that I knew I'd get some responses and that an electrical expert in CA (who is probably not an electrician, correct?) would know or someone would post something. Thanks again and thank you Mr.Hansen, you 'done good'. Rob Amaral Walpole, MA

BTW, another book I gleaned a lot from is "Soares Book on Grounding" (I think). I got a lot out of it. Another book I have that is pretty interesting is "Electric Railways" (I forget by who) but it shows you how to wire a house with knob and tube. Awesome illustrations and very detailed explanations. On another note, a dog got electrocuted here in Boston in the past week while its owner was walking it on a public sidewalk. The papers screwed up the details but I see a lot of super-corroded underground laterals in Boston and I'm not suprised.

Boyz: Tnx. I have that book (stuffed in the shelf!). I'll get it out. A great book by the way, Doug. I had no time this AM to check this stuff out. Hit the road before 6 to get into Boston and we were getting hit by an 'ice storm' in the morning. Interesting few hours this morning (travel-wise). Much appreciated! R

Perhaps someone can tell me 'why' this is 'no-noguchi'" Circa 1958 'service' in multi unit bldg (about 15 units). Bldg disconnect ahead of multiple meters, each feeds a 60A disconnect that has an old 'feeder' (2 hots/1 uninsulated neutral) to the in-unit subpanel load center. One apt (now condo) gets gutted and rehabbed totally and gets all new NM-B, new subpanel load center. Electrician still keeps old feeder, unbonds neutral bus (floating), 'bonds' the equipment ground bus to the enclosure and runs a grounding wire (insulated jacket) to a water pipe below the apartment that is supposed to act as a 'return path' for any ground fault current. I basically said it is improper for a couple of reasons (ground wire needs to be in the same 'jacket' as the 2 hots and the neutral and that water pipes are not supposed to be used as an 'intended' path, even in a ground fault situation). Doo-doo is flying because it is the 11th hour of the transaction and I'm trying to find that 'reason' for the wire to be in the same sheath (as in new feeders). I know its one of the "Electrical vood-doo" reasons that we don't bring up often but I cannot remember why. While I look today, any of you guys know 'why' this is wrong? I told them that optimally, a new feeder should be run and that in the meantime, it might be better to ask the city inspector if it is ok to have the neutral bonded to the enclosure like all the other apt units still do at this time rather than use plumbing as a deliberate "intended ground fault path". I said what the guy did here is backwards thinking and that the only time you connect pipes to the ground system is for grounding electrode and to 'bond' the pipes ('catch' stray juice). It would be nuts to 'send the juice there' in order to try and clear a ground fault. The bldg is circa 1910. I figure there is cheesy threaded brass pipes anyway.

We Boston-area inspectors see these all the time in those old apartment buildings. I have fun doing these. Often, you'll find one abandonded in the basement of a building as well. I call them the "Titanic" boilers.. Nice shot of the interior by the way, Kurt. I found a soot pocket at the bottom of a chimney for a huge boiler near Harvard Square completely choked with sulphurous build-up. I'll try to find the photo. It had solidified and was blobbing-out of the clean-out (no clean-out door...IT was the clean-out door). Awesome amount of neglect. I've found many huge chimneys in serious trouble by just opening a clean-out. Goes in the report as ("Condo Assoc Issue") and has been one of the reasons I get a lot of personal referrals. One digital cam shot up a soot pocket at the clean-out can really help you and your client's association out. I too find a lot of neglect and leakage at the central boilers. I try to be discrete if the bldg soop is right there and just click...I need him to help me get on the roof..!

Hausdok is keerect.R

Talk about "Mickey Mouse"...check out this ventilation set-up I found this past summer.. Photo-post test... Download Attachment: MIK-EMOUSEFAN.jpg 84.64 KB

OK. A lot of times in the my area, I'll be in a multi-family in a neighborhood packed with multis. Ages circa 1910 or so.. We'll find meters indoor and main disconnect for building upstream of meter and so forth. Sometimes, the demonstration of what they should be heading towards is visible on the house next door. Gets simpler and faster to 'get them there' as these ancient messes are constantly be upgraded now.

Sounds funky, Kurt. What was the 'ampacity' of the 'service entrance leading in from the exterior? Sounds like they should have gone to a new meter 'trough' (at exterior)where new feeders to the 4 in-bldg 'load centers' could be located or something like that. Where were the meters? Was there a disconnect ahead of the meters and the 'panels'? Not enough info here. BTW, I found a multi-wire branch circuit (1/2 in breakers) with both 'sides' on the same hot leg of the service yesterday. Exactly what I was trying to point out in that photo on the ASHI candidate forum (or suspected I should say).

Holes in the 'top' can lead to leakage if the tank is 'overfilled' by a deaf oil guy. Those are 'leaks' if you ask me. What caused the holes? Like Mike says, if they are 'at' the top, they are 'coming' at the bottom... (water rests at the interior/bottom of tanks with all the chemical sludge junk).

I don't see 'organic-mat' ridge shingles cracking 'routinely'....it's the 'fiberglass-mat' shingles that do. Organic-mat shingles tend to put up with more radical flexing. Same for valley shingles. However, ridge-cap shingles could leak (no impermeable membrane) to roof but valley shingles 'might not' due to the membrane (if present).

It's only a matter of time before the roofing manufacturer's come up with special-material 'ridge cap' shingles. The old days are indeed over. Ridge caps and valley shingles crack (fiberglass) and that is that. I'll bet well see a special shingle for this purpose. Most I see are cracked, too. I simply say 'replace em'. Cracks=UV penetration to the subtrate..."no noguchi" and premature degradation can result. I don't care how 'common' it is, it needs correction. CYA's boys...CYA's. ... Eventually the roofing manufacturers will respond to the problem... It is 'their' problem...not ours...

Dennis: Amen kid. Good to hear from you. R

These deadfront screws were the proper screws and the fault did not occur due to these screws touching any wires within. It was the drywall screw above... I check wires that are behind the deadfront screws once the cover is off and if any are close to the screws (no matter if blunt or pointed or whatever), I move them away. I never leave a 'deadfront' panel cover off. I can see the judge now: "Why do they call this cover the 'dead'front panel cover sir?" The glasses and the 'Clint Squint" works (I do have goggles and have used them in rare cases...too much...too much). I once had a deadfront panel cover screw 'bite' into a wire in the panel while removing it. Brand new house. Builder's electrician was still on the premises and came down with profuse apologies... The only other 'welding' incident I had (yesterday's was only the third in 8 years..not bad) was when I was a new guy and I was checking a 1950's vintage 60A panel and I had to stand on a milk crate. I was scraping the tinned-copper of a 110V circuit (teaching myself..!) to expose the copper and I heard a noise behind me. I turned and the blade of the screwdriver angled over to the neutral terminal. Nice light show and I almost fell off the milk crate/ That was a hell of an interesting moment! No one was there (vacant house, I had the lockbox). Hell of show and hell of a lesson. I know go into every inspection with one of those toolbox-stool thingies so I can stand on it. That toolbox stool has paid off so many times. (Stains on ceilings, carrying those 'extra deadfront panel cover screws'...yep....I have about 20 assorted and sundry attached to a pot magnet...).