Carson2006

Marc, are you talking about Point of Entry surge protection or Point of Use type surge protection? Just curious.

Agreed, workmanship isn't the best; but I've seen a lot worse. However, workmanship is a very subjective issue and IMHO isn't a problem here. Why put a showroom paint job on a 1975 farm truck! Inductive heating would not be an issue here. The conductors are not large current-drawing, paralleled conductors. Conductors of the same circuit must be contained in the same raceway, gutter, cable tray, etc. Terminations are ok. The splice box is ok. Conductors seemingly are in the same conduit. Can't see anything wrong with the terminations as such; not that I remember at the moment anyway. Basically the only issue I see is the "for rent" sign hanging on the splice box for mice, insects or any other critter looking for a new home. (The un-used open knock-outs) They need a plug to cover em up.

Good feedback, I like it. First I?d like to mention that it is not my intent to impress anyone. I simply assisted as asked. Hey I enjoy this site and couldn?t imagine doing what you guys/gals do! It?s a lot of work to be knowledgeable in all the required facets of your job. As far as my advice that I provide on occasion, that?s pretty much it, its advice. One can take it or leave it; doesn?t matter to me. I?m simply on here to help when I can. If I may respond. Agreed Mr. Lamb, the document does seem boring if you will. I suppose I could have written it as a suspense novel, but the topic is technical and it would have taken more time to write as a novel. (Jesting of course). But you do bring up a good point about tasks that HI?s perform. As I mentioned, I have limited knowledge about the home inspection process and frankly am not sure exactly of all electrical tasks performed by the typical HI. However it seems some HI?s do perform electrical tasks that do apply to NFPA 70E, as mentioned in the document. Anytime one removes a cover from a loadcenter, open the door of a disconnect switch they are performing electrical tasks regardless of the persons intent, whether it be visual inspection or voltage measurement. Those tasks fall under the NFPA 70E and in order to perform such tasks safely, in accordance with the NFPA 70E, the requirements must be met. I would also speculate that unless one is putting their face in a 400 amp, service equipment panel, the typical HI doesn?t place themselves in harm?s way too often and the threat of a serious arc blast is negligible. To answer your question more specifically, when will an HI see an Arc Blast? When murphey?s law comes into play and the metallic cover hits a 480/277 VAC panel bus as it slips out of the HI?s hands. Mr. Kenney, to respond to your post, if you thoroughly read the document, you would see that I never suggested that the HI?s level of activity never exceeds a category 0. In fact, I gave an example of when it would be a category 1. I would imply however, that HI?s task probably wouldn?t exceed a category 1; but really not sure. And if I might add, just as some advice, the PDF file link for the NFPA 70E, might be considered a copyright infringement. In fact, by placing such PDF on this site, I?m almost certain it is considered as such. I know this because have worked with the NFPA with copyright issues for our publications at my job and have knowledge on how the copyright process works. Just FYI, don?t want to see you being sued. Mr. Carson

That would work for me Mr. Katen. It was hastily done but informative to a degree.

For the record, unlike the cassette recorders of our day which talked to us the "talking paper" is a format typically used in the U.S. Air Force to present key points in a simple manner. However, off the record, I could never get the dang paper to talk to me either.

Per request of Mr. Jim Katen, I?ve hastily developed this talking paper regarding electrical worker safety in regards to the tasks that I believe most home inspectors accomplish. It is not intended to persuade use of these practices nor condemn those who don?t. It is simply a glimpse into these practices and is for informational purposes only. Cheers! Mr. Carson Download Attachment: TALKING PAPER Electrical Safety.pdf 162.55 KB

Agreed, probably most folks, electricians included, probably don?t follow these safe practices. Which brings in the liability issue that when ?accidents? do happen, it often leads to huge legal battles. However, I will try and provide you all with a talking paper regarding the safety requirements of NFPA 70E. Not dictating who?s right or wrong, just providing information. Might take a day or two, so hang in there. As far as how to ?use? a Digital Multi-meter (DMM), that would be another issue to pen and can?t go into that. I?ll keep the topic on target with safety regarding the typical electrical hazards that I speculate the typical home inspector encounters. Caveat, this information I provided is my humble opinion based upon my interpretation of NFPA 70E and is not endorsed by any entity. As far as my qualifications go, (humbly I might add), 27 years of experience in the electrical field to include high voltage distribution systems, industrial/commercial/residential electrical systems (licensed), certified instructor (Southern Conference of Colleges)of such electrical systems. In addition, I enjoy this site and enjoy seeing the electrical system problems you find during your inspections. Plus I enjoy helping you guys out from time to time. Mr. C

Just some additional information regarding electrical procedures. There are personal protective equipment (PPE) items required by NFPA 70E. I don't have time to be really specific at the moment, fairly sure for the most part anyone using meters on exposed energized parts must be in a certain catagory of PPE. Usually 8 calorie Flame Resistant appearal. There is a lot more to voltage testing than most folks realize - at least if they do it "by the book". Only reason I mention it is because I would speculate most HI's are not aware of 70E and should the "stuff-hit-the-fan" during a procedure of electrial testing, it could become a legal liability and a financial nightmare for someone.

If you would like an NEC reference, it seems to violate Article 110.12 (B), Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections; in case you'd like a reference. Mr. C

Explanation of split-bus panels by a senior electrician, Al Hildenbrand and why you may find them in electrical systems (mostly dwelling units). Hope this helps. ?In the decades around the Code driven transition from 60 Amp minimum service size to 100 Amp, the split bus panel was a way to side step the quantum jump in cost of a single 100 Amp fuse pull out or circuit breaker as the single service disconnect. The single panel enclosure had two separate bus systems in it. The service entrance conductors landed on lugs directly connected to the first bus system. This first bus system usually came with one service disconnect installed, commonly a 60 Amp, that disconnected the feeder to the second bus system. The second bus system was designed to hold the bulk of the branch circuits installed in the occupancy. As noted, the first bus system could have up to six service disconnects (assuming there weren't others in the grouping just outside the panel), so this is where the larger loads, say the central AC, electric range, electric hot water heater, etc., were installed. As a result of the split bus, no service disconnect needed to be larger than 60 Amp for a 125 Amp rated service center. There was a certain economy realized . . . The service entrance conductors were sized for the load calculation at the time of installation, plus any "room to grow" the designer deigned to add."

think I said: Seems they could have nuisance tripping from fan motor? kind of a question not an 'absolute' ? Mr. Lozier, my comment was to Marc's comment (as noted in the quote box.) about small "universal" motor's tripping AFCIs. Anywho, sorry for the confusion. To answer your question, I doubt the wall heater motor (probably a small shaded pole type) will nuisance trip the circuit. AFCI technology has come a long way since their inception. As far as your home inspection is concerned with this issue, I don't believe you have any worries with the wall furnace; it should be fine. Mr. C

Have outdoor branch circuit that's on an AFCI breaker, and GFCI receptacle. Used small power tools, (drills, weed trimmer,etc) and things worked quite well. Just saying your absolute "will trip" is incorrect.

Yes, NEC 2011; Article 210.52(E)(3). If balcony/Deck is accessible from inside the dwelling.

Correct, somewhat. What you have are equipment grounding conductors attached to a neutral bus in this sub. (Which is wrong in this case) Both of those bus bars on each side are neutral conductor connection points and are tied together with an insulated bar behind the panelboard. What is needed is a grounding bus bar that is connected (bolted) to the metal enclosure with the equipment grounds (including the feeder equipment ground) stabbed there. Additionally that grounding bus bonds the metal enclosure as well. Easy fix. Hope this helps.

A Burndy brand, insulated sleeve crimp connector. Commonly used with connecting service drops to SE conductors. Can be used pretty much anywhere I suppose.

Mr. Dirks, this is not a multi-wire branch circuit. The two ungrounded (hots) have no voltage between them. While it's an odd connection, depending upon how the circuit is installed, there is nothing wrong with it and nothing unsafe; as far as the picture goes. Two wires from the same hot leg on a listed two wire termination circuit breaker is no different than connecting (wire-nutting) a wire in a splice/junction box. IMHO it is nothing you should call out. Additionally, in a true multi-wire branch circuit (shared neutral) the neutral current will actually be lower than that of separate branch circuit neutrals and not the sum of the currents from each branch circuit. Therefore the neutral doesn't have to be larger than the branch circuit "hots".

Actually the wiring is correct in regards to amperage capability. The NM cable is 10/3 with ground; 2 ungrounded conductors (hots), 1 grounded (neutral) and 1 grounding (equipment ground). Mostly a it?s a waste of a small amount of money. However, an electrical inspector may call out the use of a ?smurf tube?, (ENT, electrical non-metallic tubing), box connector being used as a NM cable connector. This connector is not listed for securing NM cable. As an electrician, I would just snip the neutral off at each end of the circuit. It would allow more room at the water heater connection point to stuff those wires into already small and cramped area.

Think perhaps I may have eluded to the fact that is install was ok. Ohhhh, it's not. I was simply with the above wording "perm wiring". Flexible cord is "permanent". Anywho.... I'm not a home inspector- I couldn't hold a candle to any of the fine folks on here in that regard. I do enjoy reading this site and actually learn a few things time to time. I rarely chime in, especially on post, answered long ago and are dead in the water - so to speak. And when I do chime in, it's purpose is to help, not to insult or throw anyone under the bus. Finally, thanks to all on here for a very informative site, Mr. Katen, Mr. Moore and others you seem like a very knowledgeable about electricity, I'm very impressed. Marc from Lafayette, you are an interesting fella. I mean that kindly. Again, thanks to all on here; I truly enjoy this site.

I disagree. Art. 400.7; Uses Permitted, (A)(3) connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile signs, or appliances. (6) Connection of utilization of equipment to facilitate frequent interchange. ( Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are..... etc. Pretty sure these are "permanent wiring". However, uses not permitted (1) as a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure. i.e. branch, feeder circuits etc. Additionally, I must agree that cutting off the cord cap of said cord more than likely violates it's UL listing and is not a viable wiring method. Can't imagine why someone would want to "hardwire" a domestic range appliance--one should be able to easily pull that sucka out once in a while and clean the spilled chicken noodle soup underneath it.

FYI to clarify. As a former Lineman, I can assure you "we" do follow the NEC (NFPA 70) when it applies. While I can't speak for the entire U.S., most POCOs follow the rules, which most come from the NESC (National Electrical Safety Code) along with other standard operating procedures and guidelines. I think is inaccurate to inform that the power companies are exempt and the like; gives one the illusion "we" just make up our own rules that are unsafe. (Perhaps some do -- I don't know how every POCO performs) Just saying.

Also known as "Wedge Clamps". Several different types available. Pic is a common type I've used. Click to Enlarge 13.93 KB

Probably not applicable for a feeder tap rule. It definately violates NEC Art. 215.3, Overcurrent Protection.

Yup! Seems like "someone" used the EMT as an equipment grounding conductor. Ok for the most part, however, notice the paint under the connector in the main panel. Too easy to make it a better, safer installation by running a EG conductor back to the main panel's grounding bus. Plus, not a good idea to use conduit as an EG when there are concentric/ecentric K.O.s. Believe it violates NEC; 90% sure.

Marc, The term, "unbalanced neutral configuration" threw me a bit. Are you referring to a 4-wire delta connected system? Such a connection does provide for a "wild leg" that, by NEC rules, must be placed on the "B" phase in the panel and marked orange where accessible. Such transformer connections (4-wire delta) do exist where small single-phase loads are pulled from the panel. From my experience, and I'm no genius by any means, to truly balance an electrical system that provides virtually no current flow on the neutral is nearly impossible if I remember correctly. Thoughts?

I would disagree, they have everything to do with the dining room. Small appliance circuits can serve receptacles in a dining room, pantry, and breakfast room. NEC 210.52(B)(1). Pretty old original post (2004), but information is a good reminder. BTW, an NEC Handbook explains in better detail than the NEC itself. It even has pictures!! I'm a visual learner myself.