Jack Davenport

NO the copper pipe installed in place of the fuses would not have okay. Even if the interior circuit breaker was of the proper size, the installation of copper pipe in place of the fuse violates the listing of the exterior disconnect. Yeah it works but it's not correct. If they didn't want fuses out at the HVAC equipment they could install a non rated enclosed breaker ( made by Square D) or a basic pull out type disconnect.

I read the original post as having the subpanel in the same structure/building as the main(service) panels is located in. That being the case article 250.32 does not come into play as that is for a separate buildings / structures. Article 250.32 (A) - tells us that buildings or structures fed by a feeder or branch cicuits SHALL have a grounding electrode OR a Grounding electrode system. This means a ground wire ran with the feeder or a grounding electrode system installed as per article 250.50. The ONLY exception to this is when a single branch circuit is ran to the structure. The original post shows neither of these. So either way there must be a grounding electrode conductor or a equipment grounding conductor The original post shows neither of these Also don't forget, the feed to a sub panel is a FEEDER Article 215 tells us about Feeders. 215.12 tells us about Identification for Feeders 215.12(A) Grounded Conductor (neutral) The grounded conductor of a feeder SHALL be identified in accordance with 200.6 200.6 Tells us that the grounded conductor (neutral) needs to be INSULATED. The original post shows a BARE grounded conductor (neutral) So that install is incorrect on a multitude of different levels. NO grounding Conductor ( or ground electrode conductor if in a separate structure) The use of a bare grounded conductor Grounding conductors and grounded conductors in the same terminal Multiple grounded conductors in the same terminal incorrect circuit breakers I can tell by the picture, but if that main back fed breaker is a snap in and is not held in place by a fastner that requires other then a pull to release it, it needs to have one installed according to article 408.36 I would also question the size of that grounded conductor, looks small to me but it may not be.

There'a an inherent danger in service conductors being within reach of persons from a window. Marc I understand but the question was about the code distance from the window. When you get nipped, as I was, you can start taking code requirements literally. 30" from the upper side of a window can not be "easily reached," by anyone. It's still wrong and I'm writing it up. Just do yourself and your industry a favor. When you write it up , be sure to write it up as a "recommended correction". If you write it up as wrong, then your customer has an electrician come out and open the code book to show your customer that it is correct and code compliant and you are wrong. As your customer is writing a check to the electrician they are thinking about how you stated it as wrong and now cost them $$.

the existing premise wiring exception is for branch circuit wiring for receptacles. You are allowed to replace receptacles on a 2 wire ( ungrounded) circuit IF you use the proper devices. When replacing receptacles on 2 wire circuits you need to use either a non grounding receptacle or a gfci receptacle and label it as no equipment ground. Tha exception does not cover feeders to a sub panel as there is a real life threatening situation created by doing so.

That panel is fairly new. Newer then 15 years thats for sure. I'll bet it's no older then 8 or maybe 5 years. I see incorrect breakers, multiple neutrals per terminal, grounds and neutrals on the same bterminal bar. I am going to say that if you are replacing the panel, you must install it to the code in force at the time of installation. That means the feeder cable must be correct also, both in size and number of conductors. Using the old cable that does not meet the code when the panel was installed, means that the panel can not be up to code either. So yes the feeder cable shall be replaced !! Leaving like it is creates a dangerous situation, a possible deadly situation. By having the neutral bonded down to the panel, you have created a parallel path for the neutral currents. Grounds are not designed to carry current, thats why they can be bare. Neutrals DO carry current back to the source. By having the neutral bonded to the panel can you have now allowed those neutral currents to flow on the exposed metal can, the metal panel cover, and any thing else that is grounded,( water pipes and such) In a fault there can be an extremely large amount of current going across those metal parts. be Smart and cover you r butt- Call it out as dangerous and incorrect.

as per the national electrical code you can only have 1 neutral conductor pr terminal. As far as the number of grounds per terminal , you will need to read the panels label as this is where that information is located. It should tell you how many and what sizes you are to have per terminal.

You can't fix Stupid

It may be perfectly safe to just rip it off but ................. can you be 100% positive ?? Are you 100% positive as to why it was installed ? Are you there to do repairs ? I would just write it up as needing removal.

Trust me I was in no way advocating the use of Knob & Tube ! I ripped tons of that crap out. I would never suggest adding on to it. I view K & T the same way I view an old fuse panel - Was a very good thing when first installed as it was the latest and greatest items on the market, but if still in use ,it's time to replace it. I was pointing out that it is still in the National Electrical Code as being allowed to be extended.

Article 394 in the 2008 National electrical code allows the installation of Knob and Tube wiring for the extension of existing installations or by special permission. Quoted from the 2008 NEC: 394.10 Uses Permitted. Concealed knob-and-tube wiring shall be permitted to be installed in the hollow spaces of walls and ceilings, or in unfinished attics and roof spaces as provided by 394.23, only as follows: (1) For extensions of existing installations (2) Elsewhere by special permission

As far as the use of the incoming water line for a Grounding Electrode goes - Article 250.52 in The National Electrical Code ( NEC) Tells us that if Metal Underground Water pie in direct contact with the earth for 10 feet or more IT MUST BE USED. Article 250.50 Says that if any of these are present they MUST BE USED. 1) - Metal Underground Water Pipe 2) Metal Frame of the Building Steel 3) Concrete Encased Electrode 4) Ground Ring 5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes 6)Other Listed Electrodes 7) Plate Electrodes Article 250.53 tells us that if the only electrode used is the Underground Water Pipe you MUST ALSO INSTALL ANOTHER ONE. You are allowed to install any of thoise listed above From #2 to #7. Most common is to just drive some ground rods to supplement the Under Ground Water Pipe.

There is no way to determine the size difference between a #1 awg and a #1/0 awg from a picture on the internet! Those 2 conductor sizes are way too close in size to determine in a picture and anyone who does is just guessing! One can not determine the conductor size by using a tape measure either. The various types of conductor insulation prevents this as the insulation is made from different materials of different thicness. I think Brandon may hit the nail on the head. You said the disconnect is outside -What SIZE overcurrent is in the disconnect? This will determine what size conductors can be ran to the interior panel. That 200 ampere breaker in the panel is just a disconnecting means,provided there is overcurrent protection in the exterior switch, it is not neccessary. The panel could have been a main lug only panel.

Still not allowed unless the terminals are listed for more then one conductor. That one is not listed for more then the one conductor, so it's wrong

I was just looking at the first post and the picture of this installation. Incorrect installation Violations that I can see (and I'm sure there's more on the inside) Disconnect facing down ( nec article 240.33) Breaker not labeled as the service disconnect ( nec article 230.70(B) Where is the System Grounding Connections ? (nec article 250.24(A) ) If this is all done at the panel in the "main Basement" it is an incorrect installation. THat should be wired as a subpanel with the grounding (ground) and the grounded ( neutral) isolated form each other.

I was reluctant to post this but now is the time to do so. I know that fine print notes (FPN) and commentaries in the NEC and the NEC handbook are not enforceable BUT ..... In the 2008 National Electrical Handbook ,published by the NFPA, has commentary included in it. The commentary is "intended to assist users in understanding and applying the NEC." In other words the commentary is written by the NFPA and/or the code making panels to explain the code sections. The commentary explaining NEC articl 240.33 reads: The general rule of 240.33 requires enclosures for overcurrent devices to be installed in a vertical position. A wall mounted vertical position for enclosures for overcurrent devices is desirable to afford easier acccess,natural hand operation,normal swinging or closing of doors or covers,and legibility of the manufactures markings.In addition this section does not permit a panelboard or fusible switch enclosure to be installed in a horizontal position such that the back of the enclosure is mounted on the ceiling or the floor. Compliance with the up position of the handle being on or closed,and the down position of the handle being off or open,in accordance with 240.81 limits the number of pole spaces available on a panelboard where it's cabinet is mounted in a horizontal position on the wall. The sentence in bold explains the code making panels /NFPA's intent of this code section as it applies to this topic of conversation. I'm willing to bet if you were to contact NFPA for a clarification they would agree that it can not be mounted on it's back facing down.

Did a good job there John- The 2nd floor panel is a sub panel. It is a sub panel off the 100 amp disconnect on the exterior. The "service equipment" is the 100 amp exterior disconnect and the interior main breaker panel. That 5' is that a local admendment as the NEC states "nearest the point of entrance" which leaves it up to the AHJ to decide. Most want it as short as possible. There is aviolation of NEC 230.72 Grouping of the main disconnects.

Tim From what you describe you have 2 peices of service equipment. You say there is a panel that has a main disconnect that shuts off the major part of the house. Then you also have a panel on the second floor in the bonus room that is disconnected by the 100 amp exterior breaker. The 100 amp disconnect in you picture is for the second floor bonus room panel correct ? You say you could not see the SEC for the lower level panel correct ? Most likely it is a nipple from the back of the meter enclosure to the back of the panel enclosure. Did you take the cover off the panels ? If you have 2 "main disconnects" ( one is the 100 exterior & the other is the main breaker in the panel) then you have a violation of article 230.72 in the National Electrical Code (NEC) These disconnects must be grouped together! The 100 amp exterior breaker is fed from the meter as well as the interior main breaker, correct ? This being said . This is the service disconnecting means for the 2nd floor panel. Anything after this disconnect to the 2nd floor is a feeder thus the second floor panel is a sub panel and must be wired as such. All grounds and neutrals must be isolated from each other. Another thing to look at is the label on the exterior disconnect. Seeing how it is used for service equipment it MUST be labeled as such. It should state somewhere " Suitable for Use as Service Equipment".

OK after all the facts have been brought forward, now this is where we stand. The headroom is ok as it was determined it is "within" 6'7". The minimum required by the NEC Article 110.26(E) is 6'6". This is a service disconnect. It is just inside the structure in a basement area with a dirt floor. Thus the section(s) of the NEC 230.70 (A)(1) has been met. It is in an accessible location and the length of unfused cable has be met. I do hope you checked to verify the disconnect is rated for use as service equipment as per NEC article 230.66 . This article states that service equipment be indentified as "suitable for use as service equipment" This should be on the label. I also hope you inspected the wiring inside the disconnect as this is the first point of service disconnect. This means this is where you are to bond the neutral and the ground together.This is where you should terminate the grounding electrode conductors from the water ground and ground rods. Everything from this disconnect on is a sub panel and the neutrals and grounds are isolated from each other. The only issue that would make this an illegal instalation is the orientation of the disconnect itself. Jim was kind enough to remind me that I was incorrect ( confused "on it's back" and "horizontal" Have since re read the code article slower this time and read the commentary in the handbook which clearly explains it and he is correct. (Kudo's to Jim [:-thumbu]) The disconnect can not be mounted on its back facing down. This is a violation of NEC article 240.33 Vertical Position

There is no clear definition of Near as possible in the NEC. It is up to the electrical inspector to determine that. There could a number of reasons that cable was spliced. Could the panel have been moved from the original location? Possible rodent damage ? Regardless of why it was spliced, the splice shall be in an approved junction box of trhe proper size to accomodate the splice. Just some FYI for you : Any FPN (fine print note) or commentary in the NEC is not enforceable as it is not part of the code. This is explained in the National Electrical Code ( NEC) Article 90.5 © - Explanatory Material Plummen -Not all locations utilize conduit on the services. In my part of the world it is perfectly exceptable to just use SE cable exposed. Different parts of the country uses different methods. There is no code requirement to pipe a residential service in the NEC. It may be a local admendment or local practice.

NO that is not allowed, nor is it safe. The correct way to get power out there is to have it run along the pier. National Electrical Code article 555 applies

what is the clearance from the front of that enclosed breaker to the "floor" of the crawl space? Is that breaker clearly marked with on / off or open / closed ? You stated "main Breaker" - Is this service equipment or a disconnecting means for sub panel or piece of equipment? If it is the main disconnecting /overcurrent means for the service, then that enclosure needs to be tagged as "suitable for use as service equipment". This would on the label. It is allowable to mount circuit breakers horizontal as per article 240.33 in the 2008 NEC

A couple quick comments for plummen - Your a Plumbing company that holds an electrical contractors license. Do you have a master electricians license also as reuired by the state or do you employ a master ? You do realize that by doing an unrecognized or unapproved method on the aluminum wiring you have put your company & the master electrician at risk? As a "master" your responsibility is to know the corect and proper method to complete your installation / repair in a fashion that will not place your customer in harms way. If you are not sure about something it is your job as a "master" to find out the answers prior to proceeding. To answer your question on experience - Yes I have the experience behind me to back up my comments. Yes I have completed aluminum wiring repairs. I have taken and passed ( the first time with a 90%) a state master electricians test.Matter of fact - I have 28 years of electrical experience to back me up. Relax these guys are an ok bunch of folks, just stop and "listen" to what is being said- You made a mistake, go fix it. You will catch more flies with honey ...

First - There are a number of brands of Anti-oxididant compounds. Pennatrox and noalox come to mind. (I think " No-Lox" is an order that is placed when in a Bagel shop [] ) Second - just putting some noalox into a wire nut and pigtailing copper tails to the aluminum conductors is big time WRONG and passes on a False sense of security. There was a time when the Purple wirenuts were the way to go, but not any more if you want to do it correctly. The only recogonized method is a method called " Copalum" marketed by Tyco under the name of "Amp". The Copalum system can only be installed by licensed contractors ,certified by tyco. This can be an expensive system ,but how much is the home worth and what value would one place on their families safety ? The consumer Product Safety Council ( cpsc) has stated that they only recognize the copalum system as the correct way to deal with aluminum wiring. They stated that the previously recommended use of purple wirnuts is an "inadquate solution". This came from a statment released by the cpsc in 2003. Here is a link to a PDF published by the CPSC on Aluminum wiring repairs. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf

Is this a temporary install or a permanent one? You said the service drop - which is the utilities overhead lines prior to the meter. From the meter in it's yours. Are you talking about relocating the overhead lines as well as the meter and cable to the panel ? If it's a temp install just put enough to keep it up. If it's a permanent I wouldn't use 4x4's Explain exactly what you are doing

anything before the meter ,including the meter, belongs to the electric utility. Thus anything before the meter is not covered by the NEC as utilities are except from the NEC as far as electrical distribution is concerned. NEC article 90.2 (B)(5) explains this.