Old Sailor Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 I scan every electrical panel in a loaded condition with what is available in the home during the course of a standard home inspection. Tell me if there is anything in this image that is reportable as in need of repair. The breaker is a double pole 240 volt breaker for the cook stove with the cook stove operating Click to Enlarge 30.2 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 If it's an indoor panel, no. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hey Charlie, It says on your website you are a Level III certified at some training or another with a thermal camera. What does that level of training consist of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 If it's an indoor panel, no. Marc Yes it is a indoor panel I am keeping score your answer is no problem[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hey Charlie, It says on your website you are a Level III certified at some training or another with a thermal camera. What does that level of training consist of? Level l consists basically intro into IR Level ll is deeper into theory and covers the electrical /mechanical IR Level lll gives the back ground to teach/qualify your own employees. I took level l in Denver Level ll in Dallas with the ITC Group and Level lll in New Jersey with Infraspection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghentjr Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Does not look like any problem. The differential between both lines is minimal. If the cook stove had resistance type burners they are different sizes. If a glass top, well, they are not very well calibrated. I would not report a problem based on your pictures. Is the cook stove on the same circuit as the oven? P.S. I don't even know how to turn on an IR camera. In my day we just held our hand over the burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Does not look like any problem. The differential between both lines is minimal. If the cook stove had resistance type burners they are different sizes. If a glass top, well, they are not very well calibrated. I would not report a problem based on your pictures. Is the cook stove on the same circuit as the oven? P.S. I don't even know how to turn on an IR camera. In my day we just held our hand over the burners. Nice answer I now have two on the no column. I am waiting for a couple more answer then we can talk about the image and what I see. Remember the name of my IR Company is CMOR say it slowly[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmettoinspect Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 The temperatures are ok. I wouldn't think anything of it from the picture, but now you got me wondering. What about the wires that show some heat at the right side of the picture maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 I'm sensing the setup, so cut to the point. What do you think is wrong? If nothing is wrong, where does it say 7degF delta is OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erby Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 How do you get an inside panel down to 30 some degrees F? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 How do you get an inside panel down to 30 some degrees F? In a garage[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 You placed your point marker directly on the problem. Makes the image hard to read. Loose connection. Fixing it will be far less effort than reporting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjr6550 Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Assuming all the range elements are on high and operating at 240 volts, then wouldn't a little difference in resistance at the screw terminals (or somewhere else in the circuit) account for that delta T? As to whether the difference is a problem, it does not seem like much to me. Then again, I generally only get concerned when the conductors feel quite warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm sensing the setup, so cut to the point. What do you think is wrong? If nothing is wrong, where does it say 7degF delta is OK? Ok kurt the thunder is at half time so here goes. Kitchen breakers are my bread and butter for Home inspection IR. You won't find this in any IR book or IR class room. Cook stoves are one of the most used appliance in a home. Thus the terminals become loose, a cook stove breaker should have equal amp draw on both legs thus the temp should be the same on both legs. Unless there is a convection fan in the oven that operates on 120 volts some operate on 240 volts just like the elements and burners. I use a 3 to 4 degrees differential between the legs to determine if the terminals are loose. When I first started documenting this I would actually check the terminals to see if they were loose and I was spot on. About 1 out of 5 panels that have a electric cook stove have loose terminals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Meiland Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Got me curious here. I opened the panel in my shop, tightened both of the terminals on the 30A breaker feeding the electric heater, ran it for 10 minutes, and took this image. Click to Enlarge 27.96 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Guys the IR camera is one of the best marketing tools in the field of HI. Clients just luv the images in a report especially if they are denoting a problem. My two main stays are electrical panels and tiled shower stalls. After I became properly trained in IR and looked back at my career thinking how many items like this I had missed over the years before IR. It kinda scared me. Its a wonder I did not get sued but I have never been sued or even been close. Some say don't give your IR away I look at it differently we include IR in every inspection but I have raised my prices as much as my market will allow. To my knowledge I am the highest priced inspector in Okla and I live in the middle of a cow pasture my nearest neighbor is a cow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Got me curious here. I opened the panel in my shop, tightened both of the terminals on the 30A breaker feeding the electric heater, ran it for 10 minutes, and took this image. Click to Enlarge 27.96 KB Did the electrical heater have a 120 volt motor. Did you measure the amp draw on each leg you must compare apples to apples 4 degrees F between the legs is not bad BTW nice image what is your camera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm still trying to decide if this is a big deal. Meiland's got a 4degF difference in a "perfect" setup. I've done similar experiments resulting in temp differences of 3-6 degrees with everything tight. Are you proposing this is a necessary inspector task, or are we gloating in a "gotcha" kind of way? IR is a good thing to have, maybe even necessary nowadays if for no other reason than the competition has it. I use mine for radiant heating analysis more than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm still trying to decide if this is a big deal. Meiland's got a 4degF difference in a "perfect" setup. I've done similar experiments resulting in temp differences of 3-6 degrees with everything tight. Are you proposing this is a necessary inspector task, or are we gloating in a "gotcha" kind of way? IR is a good thing to have, maybe even necessary nowadays if for no other reason than the competition has it. I use mine for radiant heating analysis more than anything else. BTW I have found many cook stove breakers with as much as 30 to 40 degrees F between the legs and occasionally I find one with one leg 200 degrees F No Kurt I am not a gotcha kind of person it may appear that way but the games I play I have found its always easier to remember what someone said about a topic. No a small temp differential is not a big deal in the beginning,but on a cook stove the wires will just continue to loosen over time until they burn off. Its my way to prevent this I catch it in the early stages and we don't have to worry about the wires burning off in the middle of thanksgiving dinner. I am big on preventive maintenance I spent 3 years in the Navy as a preventive maintenance instructor. I always recommend to clients that they have all the terminals in their electrical panels checked for tightness every 5 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have not ever heard about the cookstove wire loosening phenomenon before this. I am sure there are loose wires out there and am not surprised that you've found a few wires overheating. Anyone in here heard that cookstove wires loosen because of use? I'm not talking about old aluminum wire creep....I mean wires that loosen due to carrying current. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have not ever heard about the cookstove wire loosening phenomenon before this. I am sure there are loose wires out there and am not surprised that you've found a few wires overheating. Anyone in here heard that cookstove wires loosen because of use? I'm not talking about old aluminum wire creep....I mean wires that loosen due to carrying current. They often loosen but I don't think it's entirely a result of amp draw. I worked as plant electrician in a forge plant for a few years, long ago and I had the habit of returning to an install a few days later to check connection torques. Connections involving small screws almost always loosen a little after a while and some had not even been energized. Old Sailer, you don't have to prove yourself here. I'm already sure you've plenty to offer. I generally look down on guys that post questions here when they already have answers. I am not your student. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 [:-thumbu] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 So we do have a like button... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Booth Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have not ever heard about the cookstove wire loosening phenomenon before this. I am sure there are loose wires out there and am not surprised that you've found a few wires overheating. Anyone in here heard that cookstove wires loosen because of use? I'm not talking about old aluminum wire creep....I mean wires that loosen due to carrying current. They often loosen but I don't think it's entirely a result of amp draw. I worked as plant electrician in a forge plant for a few years, long ago and I had the habit of returning to an install a few days later to check connection torques. Connections involving small screws almost always loosen a little after a while and some had not even been energized. Old Sailer, you don't have to prove yourself here. I'm already sure you've plenty to offer. I generally look down on guys that post questions here when they already have answers. I am not your student. Marc ..........I'm pressing my LIKE BUTTON now......Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sailor Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have not ever heard about the cookstove wire loosening phenomenon before this. I am sure there are loose wires out there and am not surprised that you've found a few wires overheating. Anyone in here heard that cookstove wires loosen because of use? I'm not talking about old aluminum wire creep....I mean wires that loosen due to carrying current. They often loosen but I don't think it's entirely a result of amp draw. I worked as plant electrician in a forge plant for a few years, long ago and I had the habit of returning to an install a few days later to check connection torques. Connections involving small screws almost always loosen a little after a while and some had not even been energized. Old Sailer, you don't have to prove yourself here. I'm already sure you've plenty to offer. I generally look down on guys that post questions here when they already have answers. I am not your student. Marc I am sorry you guys feel that way I was not asking anyone to be my student I was just opening a dialog on a subject that most don't think about. Get people to talking everyone learns including my self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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