$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Thanks I'll do that, thanks. did go back through old PWF posts, though heres what client called a PWF: Actually was like a pole barn, (6) 6x6 treated each side, sunk 4' into ground, 6x6 posts were in 16" metal culvert in hole filled with concrete to 6" above grade, posts cut off about 2' above grade with 6x12 lambeam around perimeter connecting them all. Engineered joists w/ hangers, then another lambeam down the center with about 8 posts and concrete pads....... Only earth to wood was treated plywood skirting, treated girt just above grade as a skirting nailer.... pretty cool, and it actually had good drainage away from the home (imagine that) sorry pics on other computer Jerry