Ken Meyer Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 Is there any way the installation on the low slope roof would not be a problem? I thought the minimum for shakes was 4:12. It's too bad they spent all the money on new windows and skylights throughout the house but didn't just go ahead and replace the roof. Look at the old vs. new shakes next to the brand new skylights. Click to Enlarge 70.98 KB Click to Enlarge 60.57 KB Click to Enlarge 83.74 KB Click to Enlarge 77.94 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 Hi, That shake roof is shot. Anytime you've got more than 25% of your shakes with butt rot it's time to replace the cover. The low slope roof is newer and the guy who put it on is an idiot unless the surface beneath it is 100% sealed with ice and water membrane. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Meyer Posted May 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Yeah, I called the main roof out for replacement and said in the report that whoever does bids on replacement should evaluate the low slope one. I wondered if there might be a membrane under it, but wouldn't it have a whole bunch of nails through it even if there was one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Yeah, I called the main roof out for replacement and said in the report that whoever does bids on replacement should evaluate the low slope one. I wondered if there might be a membrane under it, but wouldn't it have a whole bunch of nails through it even if there was one? If IWS is present under the shakes, it'll be fine. You can nail through it and the material will seal around the nail shaft. Just don't pull the nail out again. Why do we sill put shakes on roofs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Talking of shake roofs...how d'ya like today's fine repair on an Eastside mini-mcmansion. Download Attachment: 120504S031x.jpg 136.63 KB BTW, just because a shake roof feels dry to the touch, and it's only an innocent 5-12 pitch, doesn't mean you can't squeeze enough water out of the soft rotted wood to turn even your grippy shoes into air-hockey pucks! Fortunately, I hadn't gone too far and was able to grab an overhang. I worked my way back to the ladder on my backside and did the rest of the roof from the eaves and with binoculars. No biggy, it's an obvious re-roof. Scary though and closest I've gotten to "early retirement" for a while. I'm not sure if it was the old preservative or very light algae, but I've seldom felt anything that slippery before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 BTW, just because a shake roof feels dry to the touch, and it's only an innocent 5-12 pitch, doesn't mean you can't squeeze enough water out of the soft rotted wood to turn even your grippy shoes into air-hockey pucks! I assumed everyone kept a pair of Korkers in their rig, or something similar..... My only big scare on a roof was on a shake roof w/ a very steep pitch. Feet slipped out from under me and I rode the fairly freshly oiled roof on my butt and back; ended up within a foot of the gutter edge. It was the fastest slip and slide I've ever ridden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 BTW, just because a shake roof feels dry to the touch, and it's only an innocent 5-12 pitch, doesn't mean you can't squeeze enough water out of the soft rotted wood to turn even your grippy shoes into air-hockey pucks! I assumed everyone kept a pair of Korkers in their rig, or something similar..... ... Nope, and this is probably one of those "some do, some don't" things. Myself, I've never felt that I have the right to add more holes to a shake roof with spikes when my client doesn't yet own the house but, yeah, I could have used them today. Thankfully, with the majority of my work in the city, I don't get that many shake roofs. I still walk some, carefully, when they're dry, wearing a generic pair of shoes that I have found with soft and very grippy rubber soles. This one fooled me and once the soles got wet it was enough to lubricate everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 BTW, just because a shake roof feels dry to the touch, and it's only an innocent 5-12 pitch, doesn't mean you can't squeeze enough water out of the soft rotted wood to turn even your grippy shoes into air-hockey pucks! I assumed everyone kept a pair of Korkers in their rig, or something similar..... ... Nope, and this is probably one of those "some do, some don't" things. Myself, I've never felt that I have the right to add more holes to a shake roof with spikes when my client doesn't yet own the house but, yeah, I could have used them today. Thankfully, with the majority of my work in the city, I don't get that many shake roofs. I still walk some, carefully, when they're dry, wearing a generic pair of shoes that I have found with soft and very grippy rubber soles. This one fooled me and once the soles got wet it was enough to lubricate everything. I encourage you to rethink your position, Richard. After 20 years of walking on shakes with Korkers, no one has ever said peep to me about harming their roof. Walking on shakes, even when dry, without them is just plain dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Walking on shakes, even when dry, without them is just plain dangerous. I dunno, unlike Richard I'm out in the burbs in a lot of high-end neighborhoods where shake roofs are the norm and comp roofs and other types of roofs aren't allowed by CC & A's. I've walked on an awful lot of shake roofs and never felt that walking on a dry shake roof is any more dangerous than walking on any other type - in fact, I've found that they're a lot safer to walk on than metal roofs. I agree that stepping onto a shake roof that's even the slightest bit damp is like stepping onto a puddle of grease, but I've never had an issue with loss of traction on a dry shake roof walking them with my ordinary rubber-soled Rockports. There is a steepness limit I reach after which I can't get any traction somewhere around a 10:12 when I have to have a valley to scale or I can't get up there, but it seems to be about the same angle as I encounter when going up comp roofs and it's pretty darned steep. I've never worn korkers or cougar paws; so I don't know if those would provide better traction on those steeper slopes than I get with the rubber-soled shoes, but I really don't see that there is any appreciable difference between a dry comp roof and a dry shake roof; in fact, a dry comp roof might be more hazardous because of the tendency of those roof granules to slough off under pressure at steeper pitches. I'm not advocating against wearing the golf shoes and I'm not advocating for walking on shake roofs without 'em; I just don't agree that walking on dry shake roofs without them is any more dangerous than walking on any other roofing product. Then too, one has to know one's limits. A rookie at this business can't exect to be able to, and shouldn't be, inspecting by walking on them the same roofs as long-time vets, unless that rookie has had previous experience with high roofs and different roofing products and how to properly and as safely as possible negotiate them. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I laid plenty of shakes in the 70's and lived under them myself. I'm no rookie, but I don't walk any shake roof as a rule. They are getting rare around here anyway. I look for a few split, rotten shakes, not hard to find from the ladder. I take some good pics of those and some shots of the whole. Tell the client the roof is old and will need to be replaced soon. "All you need for a leak is two cracks that line up, like this and like this". One time, the buyer's dad wanted more detail. A stain around a light fixture had him worried. I had already said shake roof, split shakes, rotting shakes, will break more walking around, etc. This roof had been pressure washed and painted. Finally I climbed up to the ridge to shut him up. Took some pics of the roof vent where they had punched hundreds of holes with their golf shoes and sprayed water into the attic. It was still a POC roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 When I've tried to walk on dry shakes, I'm fine for the first few feet, then a layer of "shake dust" or something, coats the bottom of my shoes. After that, it's like walking on ice. I see zero downside to Korkers. Every shake roofer and every shake maintenance person I've ever met uses them. Any damage that they cause to the shakes is purely superficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I see zero downside to Korkers. Every shake roofer and every shake maintenance person I've ever met uses them. Any damage that they cause to the shakes is purely superficial. Walking on old shakes causes many of them to split, as you know, but forgot to mention. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Walking on old shakes causes many of them to split, as you know, but forgot to mention. [] Nope, haven't seen that. I'm not a petite person; more like second cousin to a hippo, and I can't remember ever splitting a shake by walking on it. Maybe they're made out of something up there that splits easier than what we've got down here, 'cuz I haven't seen that. Don't know why, just haven't. What, you and I and Jim are describing probably shows that there are regional differences that can be just a few hundred miles apart. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Walking on old shakes causes many of them to split, as you know, but forgot to mention. [] Nope, haven't seen that. I'm not a petite person; more like second cousin to a hippo, and I can't remember ever splitting a shake by walking on it. Maybe they're made out of something up there that splits easier than what we've got down here, 'cuz I haven't seen that. Don't know why, just haven't. What, you and I and Jim are describing probably shows that there are regional differences that can be just a few hundred miles apart. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Maybe it's the wood. We used to ship all our best product south. Now it's going to China. The worst for splitting is resaws, which are sawn to a thin taper on the backside. The cut fibres absorb water, so they curl up. Here's some pics I found. I was unable to find the shakes with all the holes and splits. Pic 2, don't step there. Pics 3, resaws. Pic 4, a loose resawn shake at the bottom, just waiting for someone to step on it and go flying. Click to Enlarge 120.22?KB Click to Enlarge 116.33?KB Click to Enlarge 74.13?KB Click to Enlarge 99.08?KB Click to Enlarge 114.3 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 When I've tried to walk on dry shakes, I'm fine for the first few feet, then a layer of "shake dust" or something, coats the bottom of my shoes. After that, it's like walking on ice. That's pretty much been my experience as well. I can't stand wearing my Korkers (either pair), but put them on due to necessity after close calls due to what you describe above. If it has been really dry for several days, and the roof hasn't been oiled in years, I'll walk a shake roof without them under about 6/12, otherwise, I put them on no matter what. If a roof is as bad as in the pictures posted, I won't walk most of it, because they will crack, and because it's pointless. That applies to comp. shingles as well..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Why do we still put shakes on roofs? My thoughts exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I see zero downside to Korkers. Every shake roofer and every shake maintenance person I've ever met uses them. Any damage that they cause to the shakes is purely superficial. Walking on old shakes causes many of them to split, as you know, but forgot to mention. [] That happens with or without Korkers. If many of them split when you walk on them, they're on their way out anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I always think about modern shake roofs like I do a rain screen; the outside part is what's pretty, the inside part is what keeps the water out. What does it matter if there's a split shake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I always think about modern shake roofs like I do a rain screen; the outside part is what's pretty, the inside part is what keeps the water out. What does it matter if there's a split shake? It takes years, but as water tracks on the felt and, especially, as UV light gets to it, the felt breaks down and leaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 UV I get, but water? I see felts under old tile roofs that are a hundred + years old. Water damages felt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Water damages felt? Acid rain and pressure washers........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 UV I get, but water? I see felts under old tile roofs that are a hundred + years old. Water damages felt? When it's channelled into a little stream, yes. It physically wears it away. If you take apart a shake roof, you can see where the water had been tracking on the felt, it becomes sort of rotten. The UV is pretty cool too, it burns holes in the felt. If you go in one of these attics and turn off your flashlight, you can sometimes see sunlight sort of glowing through worn spots in the felt. If you touch one of those spots with your finger, it just falls apart like tissue paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I see UV degradation on shake roofs; probably every roof. It's one of the reasons I think shake roofs are silly, as the felts are, more or less, exposed in all sorts of ways. There doesn't have to be direct light on it; even the poorly reflected light eats them up. I don't think I've ever been on a shake roof that didn't have cracks channeling water into the felt. If water rots away felt, then, it's an even better argument against installing shakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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