randynavarro Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Where can one find the standard that talks about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Originally posted by randynavarro Where can one find the standard that talks about this? No idea. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Hi, Are you sure it was an ASTM document that addressed it? CPSC did a study in 1987 that identified significant issues with homes that were more than 40 years old and as a result of that asked the Fire Protection Research Foundation to do a study. That results of that study were just published and can be found here. This should be required reading for anyone getting into this business; especially those who are minimizing issues with wiring in older homes in order not to upset the referring realtor's applecart. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted October 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Thanks Mike. I guess I was confused and thought ASTM has published something. I also thought there was a document or publication older than this. That's why I asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted October 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 If I did an inspection tomorrow, and the house were 40-50+ years old, I'd cite the report and tell the customer that the electrical system needs a good going-over, and he shouldn't be surprised if the house needs a total re-wire. IMHO, this report will trump bubbas and bucketheads. Maybe that's a bit contradictory. Unless the electrician that's doing the going over adheres to the findings of the report, will it do any good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msteger Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Originally posted by hausdok Hi, Are you sure it was an ASTM document that addressed it? CPSC did a study in 1987 that identified significant issues with homes that were more than 40 years old and as a result of that asked the Fire Protection Research Foundation to do a study. That results of that study were just published and can be found here. This should be required reading for anyone getting into this business; especially those who are minimizing issues with wiring in older homes in order not to upset the referring realtor's applecart. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Very interesting report found at that link.. No mention of FPE breaker panels, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Boy, electrical can get complicated. (semi-colon?) AFCI, GFI, GFCI, bonding, FPE, Zinsco, knob and tube, aluminum, grounding, sub-panels, mystery gauges, ampacity and voltage, EMF, counterfeit breakers, unique cover fasteners, magic, etc.... Wonder what they are teaching in the inspector schools these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Tedesco Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Take some time and look through these links for the information you are looking for. I have old catalogs with the electrical equipment used in the 60's and earlier. http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=AS ... d&as_brr=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 I'm certainly not disagreeing with the study, and I'm not one that goes easy on reports to please the realtor ladies, but are folks advocating telling all our customers that every house >40 years old needs a complete going over by an electrician? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Here's my problem with it........ My whole gig is focused around de-mystifying the house. Start putting references in allowing as to how 99.9% of the houses of the houses I look at are fire hazards, and it just got a whole lot more complicated; I'd see customers recoiling away from seeking knowledge; can't have that...... If I started referencing all the studies and information I have, no one would ever want a house. They would have no contextual framework for even beginning to understand all of it. Honestly, I'm bananas about GFCI upgrade advice, interlinked smoke detectors up the wazoo, and checking out what can be reasonably checked out in an electrical system (which, once more honestly, ain't shit, SOP's and then some) during an HI. After that, if I can see specifics, they get reported with a photo, notation, and an arrow. I just don't see old houses bursting into flame all the time, or folks getting hurt, and all I do is look at old houses in a super dense urban environment. Where's the other statistic that tells us degree of hazard? There isn't one. We have to be afraid of everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 I focus my gig on providing information. Hopefully information that's useful, hepful, and relevant. If I came across a 1920's bungalow that was never remodeld, and impecabbly maintained I likely wouldn't tell the folks to replace all the old K & T. I still give 'em the info. though. Can't fight thermodynamics - things tend toward decay. Trouble is, I've yet to across one of those dandy bungalows. They've been made bigger, better and being Seattle, everyone has to have their espresso machines. Chances are that K & T has been butchered and over-worked. It's a fine line; providing relevant information and telling folks they have to be afraid of everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Another point: I don't tell folks to have old wiring evaluated. An electrician can't see inside the walls, under all the insulation in the attic, and won't analyze each wire. I tell 'em something like, "If you want 100% peace of mind that the wiring isn't going to be a problem, you should have it replaced." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 *All* of the knob/tube I've seen is seriously boogered, and should never be energized. Damn Walter! I like it...but your post was just a little too late for me to use "boogered" in the report for yesterday's mess. Image Insert: 121.04 KB Yeah, I know about the insulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 See, that's what I'm talking about. I love it when I find stuff like that. Love it. Then, I can hammer the whole system in my report, and throw in the NFPA stuff as reference backup. My internal contradiction is when I don't find the obvious nastiness, and the house is simply older. I have a hard time telling folks it's all screwed up and dangerous just 'cuz it's old. I'm an information provider too, but given the volumes of information I can level at a customer, I have to be careful of what I get into. Every house can turn into a never ending disaster in the eyes of the well informed HI. Ohhhh, the humanity.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Good discussion of a real issue we face everyday. If I don't find the kind of obvious, screwed-up stuff that makes hammering easy, I usually go with some variation of "It all looks okay for now, BUT....". I feel have to tell 'em it's outdated, getting older, is more likely to have problems as time goes on, and that someday someone will have to replace all that antique stuff, but I don't think calling for an electrician to come out and do what I just did for another fee is really helping my client in that situation. Brian G. Lots of Grey, Not So Much Black & White [:-magnify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Another thought/reality. . . If we don't tell 'em the not-so-pretty stuff, who will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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