Richard Moore

I doubt that anyone, even the pest guy, would argue that a complete moisture barrier would be preferred, all other things being equal. So, even if there were a "scientific" reason for doing this in some old houses, surely that would involve a thorough evaluation of present conditions, including existing structural moisture content, crawl ventilation (probably minimal in an older home), and seasonal soil conditions. You think the pest guy takes all that into consideration? Me neither! Maybe, it would actually be beneficial in one old house out of ten. Who knows? But, it seems that doing this in every old house is going to leave a lot of them less protected than they could be. As Mike pointed out, unless the grading in the crawl happens to be perfect, there's a very good chance that water will get on top of the barrier, sit and slowly evaporate there, and might be worse than no barrier at all. Hell, as an inspector, I wouldn't even know if the new "skimpy" barrier was simply a replacement for a complete, but tatty old one. I think Tim's original statement is just fine... The vapor barrier in the crawlspace is inadequate, as it doesn't cover 100% of the soil under the home. I recommend that this be corrected immediately. This is important because the barrier limits the amount of moisture that can evaporate out of the soil into the crawlspace. A proper vapor barrier consists of black, 6-mil polyethylene sheeting and must be applied from wall to wall of the foundation. It should cap the footer and lay tightly against the sidewalls, overlapping at least a foot at all adjoining sheets and be tightly sealed around the base of support piers. Ideally, the barrier is secured to the foundation walls, and overlaps at adjoining sheets are sealed with waterproof tape. Additionally, the barrier should be applied with some slack so that it can float free without separating and still inhibit evaporation if minor flooding occurs. Maybe he could add... And if anyone tells you any different, have them provide the documentation supporting their claim along with the warranty that it won't cause future moisture related damage.

"Bottom line here is that the bug guy was selling Tim wolf tickets because he doesn't want to return to the house and adjust that barrier." Once again, driven to Wikpedia... Dang Mike, who you be hangin' wid?

Around here they just leave a 10 foot by 15 foot gap in the center of the crawl. NOT!!! Just kidding, but that is the equivilant of a one foot gap all the way around a 1250 sq ft crawl. No way I wouldn't say that is wrong. But that's here and our climate is way different from Alabama. "...the sudden lack of moisture would dry the framing so quickly that the floors would buckle" is a little hard to believe. It's still a crawl. What would be so "sudden" unless you deliberately put a dehumidifier down there?

Bill...would they be OK for a gas water heater? I did find some at an Ace Hardware site and they list the ID as 5/8 so that would remove that concern.

Don't know about code. From a "safety" point of view, they are probably fine on an electric water heater but I think would be wrong next to the draft hood of a gas model. But, I would still be concerned about the internal diameter of the "washing machine" type hoses and how that might effect flow rates (although these do look fairly "beefy"). Actually, the top nut, at least, looks "purpose built" and not just a normal hose bib connector. Unfortunately, it looks like they have removed the labels that might have listed their use for this purpose. Normal metal flex connectors aren't that expensive, and I don't think anyone would fault you for expressing you concerns and recommending they be changed.

LOL...the doorbell transformer is a nice added touch!

If all you want to do is make minor changes to the existing wording, and not change the format or anything more complex, then all you really need is the ability and permissions to download and upload the HTML file for that particular page, normally using a simple FTP program. You don't need to understand the HTML, just open the file with notepad, find the sentence (which will typically be buried after a lot of "stuff"), make changes to the wording without touching anything else around it, and then save it and upload it back to your site. As an example, the following is a screen shot of the source for this very thread. Image Insert: 165.27 KB Anything more complex than that, then I understand Frontpage is a good tool. I use a program called Homesite, but it is more of a basic HTML editor and requires a decent grounding of the language. Kevin, if you would trust me with the access code to your site, and the changes are relatively minor (meaning you supply the new wording so I don't have to think), I would be more than willing to make the changes for you as a fellow TIJer. But, as I won't always be around, you should find a way to do it yourself. It ain't that hard.

Y'know, I've been under that misconception since I first heard the neutral called a grounded conductor going back to the grounded transformer. I won't pretend to fully understand the whole shebang but I think at least some fog has finally lifted! Thanks Jim. That part, the need to isolate the neutrals from grounding in a sub-panel etc, I get. As weak as my electrical theory is, I can understand the physical connections needed to keep the neutral current insulated. So...you don't have to go there for me. But, many thanks for the rest of your reply.

I'm positive they called for four. 3 circuits, a Bridgeport w/a 120 v worklight and 120v power feed for the table, a Clausing w/a 120v work light, and a compressor...no work light. Getting back to that... That was what I was wondering about. If the machines only called for, and had the connections for, two hots and a ground then you would still expect the bare grounding conductors to be connected to the grounding bar even if the sub-panel was wired correctly with a neutral feeder, a floating neutral bar and a separate grounding bar. In that case, any neutral current from the 120-volt work-lights would still be travelling back to the main panel via the EGC. If they do call for 4 conductors, as it seems they should, then it's not just the sub-panel that is wired wrong but also the circuits from the sub-panel to the machines. Frankly, "neutral current" is a bit of a mystery to me. I understand that it's there but I don't really get why it's not wasted when it eventually goes to ground. But that's OK; I've also never been comfortable with the fact that you can convert mechanical power, push it along a copper line with no moving parts, and then convert it back to mechanical power. It's like...ummm...magic! Fortunately, I know just enough to know electricity is dangerous if not used correctly. However, like Steven T, I'm also curious about the dangers of neutral current. We all frequently see and call improperly wired sub-panels with mixed neutrals and grounds but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone getting electrocuted (killed) by it. Does it happen?

Yep. Of course, if it does die with your tester, then you are back to hunting the elusive guilty GFCI like everyone else, but I just don't see any good way around that.

John, I have a bit of a issue with the last part of that method. You may be erroniously reporting the outlet as unprotected. In that case you still have a GFCI hidden somewhere in the house. Going by your report, the client installs a GFCI at the supposedly unprotected location. It tests fine with the button, but the first time an actual ground fault occurs it's possible that a: the newly installed GFCI, b: the hidden upstream GFCI, or c: both will trip. In the latter two instances, the client is "mysterily" left with no power to that location. It's safe, but could be a real nuisance. Or...the client pays an electrician the $200 or so to get them out of bed and install a GFCI and he quickly finds the existing GFCI. As it better fits my routine of moving around a house, I would rather just test all locations as I come to them, take my chances and report an unfindable GFCI if I have to, than make and report that assumption. Especially as, thanks to Jim K, I am now carrying an extension cord for that freezer full of food.

Never occured to me. That's so simple, it's brilliant. [:-thumbu]

"It appears that it took out the garage and bathroom outlets also..." My first guess would also be the garage, buried behind shelving, cupboards or the freezer, but could be anywhere. While it's nice to have some idea where the GFCIs are in the house, it's just not always possible to find them all before testing a location that should be protected. We've all been there I'm sure, rooting around for the mystery GFCI. I don't think I've ever left the house without finding one, but they can be hiding in some odd places, like under the sink behind all the smelly toiletries in the bathroom. I've had to pry a fully loaded freezer away from the wall in the garage to get to one. Only yesterday, the garage had 2 GFCI's, but one was buried behind boxes. Finding the first, I had no reason to look for or suspect another until I got to the powder room late in the inspection. I tripped that with a tester and fully expected to reset either the master bathroom GFCI or the one in the garage. But...no! I probably wasted a good 15 minutes or more looking around the rest of the house before checking behind boxes in the garage as I was running out of options. How to write it up? I'd report what happened and then suggest the client ask the homeowner where the damn thing is. As for everyone being unhappy...well the homeowner should know (or learn) where it is and the agents should simply know better. I have no idea why your client would be unhappy. Stuff happens, and you didn't actually break anything.

The built-in 120-volt worklights are "interesting". I don't know if there would be another way of doing that (like 2 lights in series?) without using the ground as a neutral. Everything in my workshop that I have hooked up to 240 only required 2 hots and a ground, but none of them have a worklight. So...I'd want to know what the required wiring feed to each machine was. Chad, what were the machines? Oh...and full wiring schematics would help!

Yeah, but you only have the three 240-volt circuits (none with neutrals). Assuming they haven't hooked up some appliance incorrectly and they are just feeding pure 240-volt equipment, I don't see where there would be any neutral current to pass along the bare conductors. I'm not saying that you should wire a sub that way, but I'm not sure there is actually anything dangerous going on...at the moment. Someone comes along and sticks in a 120-v circuit with a single pole breaker or a 4-wire 240-v circuit...then we would have problems.

I've seen this a couple of times in existing houses. Both times the basement has been converted to a separate rental unit. I've reported it as "impractical" for the unit without the thermostat. Don't know about actual code but I just don't see how it would work without occasionally freezing or boiling the poor schmucks in the basement unit.

From the way it's splitting at the bottom, I'd say it has to be real wood. Masonite would have swollen. The grain pattern would suggest some very nice, old growth, vertical grain fir. Good example of why caulk isn't flashing.

I also worked today. Had to drive about 30 miles. All the way there I'm looking at roofs and thinking "at least the snow has melted". Then, the last 500 yards or so, everything, including my job, looked like this. Image Insert: 119.76 KB When I left, heavy hail was coming down. An hour later, I'm sitting in the sun on my back deck. A long way from hot, but quite pleasant. Screwy!

"Your (tut-tut) absolutely right; thus, my use of the word normal." The trouble is that it's very difficult to predict that the client's "normal" behaviour would mirror that of the previous owners. "Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating it. I just think that technically I bet there's a way that it can be done; not that it's legal to do so." Can't argue with that. We put a man on the moon after all. But...in order to be both efficient and safe I see no option but to also put a return in the garage so conditioned air doesn't just get blown out the garage door and cold air constantly sucked into the house. That would then require a combination gasoline vapor, CO, heat sensor set to eject the homeowners out of bed and safely to the exterior. I'm pretty sure I saw just the thing on a Wallace and Grommit episode. [] Easier to just seal the register ducts and install a simple garage heater...if they actually need one.

With the system running, assuming there is no return in the garage (which would be very wrong), wouldn't you be creating some positive pressure in the garage and, therefore negative pressure in the house. All the air you manage to pump into the garage will have to be replenished somehow in the house. Even with a good weather-stripped door to the interior and the "firewall" intact, it seems there would inevitably be some transfer through "cracks" from the garage to the interior. And that's no matter where the registers are. Mike's "actuator activated dampers" sound very fancy but my head says registers in a garage just have to be wrong, doubly so in the floor.

I got to try out the various Flir models last year at a moisture seminar. Naturally, I really liked the most expensive hi-res models. The "disadvantage" of side by side comparisons. Chris, if you had to do it again, would you still settle for the one you have? In other words...do you think the lower-res units are good enough for the way you are using it? It seems that way. When (used to be "if") I spring for one, like you, it would also be my intention to use it as an ancillary tool. I basically do home inspections one way and have no plans or desire to offer extra or add-on IR services. Nothing wrong with those that do, but I'm happy and busy enough just sticking to the basics. Not having to go for the Lexus model and the training is starting to make these financially sensible. Keep the photos coming!

"What's to evaluate? Just recommend replacing the whole mess." No comment...I just thought it deserved repeating!

Chris...Grrrrr! How much is FLIR paying you to dangle these tempting photos in front of us and make us want an IR camera that much more? [] BTW...I dunno about down there, but no self respecting McMansion up here has less than a 3-car garage. Looks more like a standard 2500-3000 square-footer with a pretentious, wannabe entrance.

It might vary in your locale, but all the national plumbing codes allow PVC for water service supply. But...no codes allow it for distribution piping, meaning that it has to change from PVC to an allowable material (CPVC, copper, PEX, etc ) as soon* as it enters the home (basement in this case). *I don't have time to search my books, but I believe one of the codes states the change has to be made within 3 or 5 ft of entry.

"So if the valve gets stuck open just how much water can potentially come out?" As hose bibs are usually served by 1/2" lines and a 3/4" discharge has roughly twice that capacity...then (assuming everything upstream of the WH is also => 3/4") it would be like fully opening 2 hose bibs. The actual amount would depend on supply pressure but, in other words, a whole lot before you had the presence of mind to shut the water supply off to the water heater. I told you there would be "some" disagreement on testing these. [] I recommend that YOU do NOT test those that discharge inside a home.