Richard Moore

https://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum ... IC_ID=4486 The manual I mentioned there ( http://www.warmyourfloor.com/images/InstMat.pdf ) is a good read for anyone interested in how these systems are installed...and what can go wrong.

One of those areas that we often disagree on, Jodi. Personally... If the termination is clearly outside, and the water heater is not due for replacement, I do test them. Actually, I really don't feel that I'm testing the TPR valve itself as lifting the valve mechanically isn't really simulating pop-off conditions, but I do want to make sure the discharge line is open. I've had some drip afterwards, but I've always been able to stop them by re-lifting the lever and letting it snap back. Never had one stick wide open. When the discharge is right at the heater, as many are around here in basements and garages, then no, I don't. First it would be messy and second a leak afterwards would cause me serious headaches. Keep in mind that our water around here is mostly soft and we don't get the scale and sediment that might tend to clog the valve in other parts of the country, so don't consider this a recommendation. I include the following as a comment in the report... "The Temperature and Pressure Relief (TPR) valve is a very important safety feature in water heaters. Most manufacturers suggest that homeowners test these valves at least once a year by lifting the lever to ensure the valve discharges properly. A leaking or inoperative TPR valve should be investigated immediately by a qualified plumber." ...and then go on to say if I tested it. But, I don't make a big safety deal about it (as long as it's plumbed correctly) and I suspect it's unlikely than anyone ever does test the thing subsequently. If you are seeing a lot of corrosion at the bottom of the discharge pipe, but it's not leaking now, I would suspect a bad previous TPR, not nescessarily the present one. As long as the pipe is still open, I would doubt it's a problem. BTW...I hadn't heard of an 80% failure rate. What material are you reading?

Had he said "some" and not "most" I'd agree with you, but this seems like no more than self promotion through unfounded negative generalization to me. Here's the thing...There are probably enough HIs to fairly represent a cross section of society. I just can't believe a majority of people in this country, and therefore HIs, are unscrupulous bastards. Yes, there are some, too many, bad apples in this profession, but I'll hold onto my perhaps naive belief that most of my colleagues wouldn't screw their client no matter where the referrals come from. That has certainly been my impression of almost all here and at other forums as well as the few HIs I've met personally. I'm just generally against generalizations, especially when someone uses them to "prove" their own superiority.

Ummm…that would be me! I don’t feel the need to prove how studley an inspector I am and I don’t go into a home wanting to find 50 things wrong just to boost my ego. My clients have fallen in love with their new prospective home and if it turns out that there are only a few, relatively minor items, then I’m happy for them (not the agent). What I do want is to find all the things that ARE wrong with the house. Ohhh! That’s what he meant. Presumably Mr. Petrie has done his homework and performed a scientific survey that found over 50% of inspectors fall into that category. Or maybe he was too busy arranging the “special -- expensive – insuranceâ€

Yeah, the RM heater is fine but that gray furry thing isn't a rodent?

According to my little Cadet cheat sheet... RAT is a recalled model!

Not just on, but 5 squigglies indicate full on. I was wondering about that when I saw your photo. It's possible, although very unlikely, that they have programmed the comfort setting (sun) down to 62, but then you shouldn't see the 5 squigglies for more than a few minutes. What is, unfortunately, much more likely is that you have a problem. With the floor "still icy cold" I don't think it can be a temperature sensor problem. The best scenario would be a loose cable connection behind the thermostat. Other than that, you are probably talking about ripping up the floor to find a break or damage in the heating cable...which isn't really possible and means re-intalling the whole thing (heat pads, tile, etc) anew. It's the one scary aspect of the under-tile radiant floor mats. I was very, very careful when I installed mine, using all the recommended precautions to prevent and/or detect damage before and during tile laying. Even then, it was a huge relief when I fired it up for the first time and everything worked. I love my warm bathroom tiles...I just don't ever want to have to fix anything. PS. One other possibility is that there are 120 and 240 volt mats and matching thermostats. If they screwed up that part it might either not heat very much or could have fried the cables depending on how they mixed voltages. But, nobody would do that...right?

Here's one from my bathroom, with the "doors" open... Download Attachment: floorstat.jpg 61.76 KB You can get to the manual at http://www.nuheat.com/products/accessories.html . Scroll down and click on the "Thermostat Manual — NTG5220" link. In short though, if it's off when you get to the home, pressing the little sun symbol button (top right) should start it up...assuming the power switch (upper left) is on.

Mike, I don't remember the post...but is this the stuff? http://www.poly-america.com/Documents/O ... iesSht.pdf Looks like it comes in either 10 or 15 mil. Oooh, here's another... http://www.insulationsolutions.com/prod ... ation.html 6.5, 10 & 16 mil. After comparing the specs for both 10 mil products, the second, the Viper Vaporcheck looks to be much, much stronger than the Husky OrangeGard (first link). Using the same ASTM tests the Viper comes in at 15,839 grams for puncture resistance versus only 2,300 grams for the Husky. That seems like a very important quality as workers are going to be giving the barrier a hard time before the pour. I see it's for under slabs but, while probably overkill, it sure would make a colorful change from the basic black in crawls.

Image Insert: 62.65 KB Man...if that is typical of the roof decking, it's hard to imagine a good roofer doing this, although I'm sure some cowboys would. New shingles, new gutters, and just hope it doesn't get inspected! [:-bigeyes BTW...I'd find it very annoying to lose my TV signal every time someone takes out the garbage. That's the best location they could come up with for the dish? Image Insert: 110.1 KB

Walter and Kurt, I don't pay too much attention to licensing in other states, but I am aware that, in at least some cases, the purpose seems to be more to "smooth the deal" rather than protect the consumer. In our case here, the "home inspector advisory licensing board" is to be made up of seven members; six of whom shall be actively engaged as home inspectors and the seventh currently teaching an HI course. Notice that there are no agents, appraisers, lawyers, etc, etc on that board. The road to our particular law seemed to be initially driven by consumer complaints about bad inspections, and not by the RE industry here. Only time will tell if all the ducks can be arranged in decent rows. Our licensing isn't necessarily going to create better inspectors, but it might get rid of some of the worst ones and deter the lesser wannabes. As there were actually no requirements at all in this state to prevent anyone from printing a business card with crayons and calling themself an HI, I see nothing wrong with that. The bi-annual fee is kind of high, but I can live with it. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't see the evil hand of realtors behind this particular state's licensing or the ability of those wicked people to easily affect or degrade our standards.

OK...I can buy that and I trust Jim's opinions (although I still don't like the loose strands). Still, it kind of makes our jobs a little "fuzzy" when something like Randy's seemingly clear labelling contradicts the actual conditions. I don't see a lot of electric furnaces, but it wouldn't surprise me to find I might have previously ignored similar wiring due to not being as sharp-eyed as Randy. So Randy...good spot and excellent question. I be a little more ejumakated!

"Oh, and to be clear -- this breaker is the disconnect inside the furnace cabinet, not at the main panel." Yeah, I got that. I don't see how that would overcome the "listing", especially as it doesn't look like all the wires actually fit that well.

Seem too easy Randy? I see 1 #2-#14 OR 2 #6-#14, I don't see where it says anywhere 3 or 4 of anything. Plus, you have strands at both lugs that aren't trapped. The solution, assuming all the wires are needed at the furnace, may be to connect them all first and then pigtail to the breaker...I stress may because obviously something is hooked up in an abnormal manner. I think the best solution is to call it wrong and recommend an electrician.

Just looking at Panel 1; it must be a sub-panel fed from the fuse-panel...right? That doesn't have separated grounds and neutrals as required for a sub-panel. In fact, you gotta love the main neutral lug where they have both the ground and neutral from the "main" panel and another large honking conductor (who knows what for) all under the same lug. I think Randy has the right idea... "There are numerous areas of incorrect wiring within and around the two panels that I could access, and also a third panel I could not remove the cover from. (etc, etc, etc...add as much detail here as you want) You should have a qualified, licensed electrician fully evaluate the electrical service and circuit wiring and provide you with estimates for the needed repairs."

Jodi, If your question is what to do if there aren't any spare holes, then it's normally a very simple matter for an electrician to install an additional (cheap) grounding bar. See http://brands.hardwarestore.com/47-your-one-source.aspx for some examples.

I'm fairly sure that Schucks will do a free battery diagnosis. I assume all the bigger auto-part stores would do the same.

I think your name is just fine. At least not worth the hassle of changing it. Mine's too cute and too long, my logo sucks, and I wish I chosen something else, but I have way too many business cards left. Chris, the one thing on your truck I personally have a problem with (besides the magnifying glass [] ) is the phone number. I assume the first letter is an "I" but it ain't that clear. I have this thing about having to decipher alpha to numeric on the keypad and I'd much rather just dial (that ages me) or write a number down. That's probably just me though, driven by the fact that I need reading glasses to see the small letters on my cell...or focus on those blurry things at the ends of my arms.

BTW Jodi, just so you can explain to your clients why double-tapped neutrals are not allowed... There are two reasons; both valid. The first is that any changes to the panel might involve loosening the terminal screw and leave a hot circuit with an unintended open neutral...which can be hazardous. The second, and the one I find most compelling, is that the screw in a normal round lug might only be applying pressure on one of the conductors, leaving the other loose. As neutrals carry current under load, that can lead to constant arcing and might be the cause of your scorched or melted neutrals (I say might because there could be other reasons). This "quality of connection" issue is the same for breakers, and why they shouldn't be double-tapped unless designed and listed for it. 2 or 3 grounding conductors are usually allowed in the very same lugs because any current on those would be the result of a ground fault and should be only momentary before the breaker trips.

Parallel conductors are sometimes used for larger feeds to increase capacity. I don't know the exact math but you might be able to use a pair of 1/0 Als instead of a single 4/0 Al conductor to provide 200-amps. It's not something you are too likely to come across in a residence. And...the terminals still need to be listed for more than one conductor. There are two types of breakes that are designed for 2 conductors. Most recent Square-D (homeline and QO) and Cutler Hammer CH breakers from 10 to 30 amps can be doubled. BUT...it is only most and not all. The terminals are clearly different and the breakers will have info marked on the sides. See these photos of a Square-D breaker... Image Insert: 71.02 KB Image Insert: 61.91 KB In the second photo you can see how the plate would balance pressure on the conductors trapped in the grooves on either side. Sorry, but I don't have a CH photo.

On the first, the doubled neutrals, language was added to the NEC in 2002 (originally 408.21 and then became 408.41 in the 2005 & 2008 NEC) to clear this up. 408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor. Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor. Before that, it relied more on the listing of the panel neutral bar. However, I don't think anyone has ever seen wording in a panel that would suggest the terminals can be used for more than a single grounded (neutral) conductor. As far as we HI's are concerned, it's pretty safe to say that all neutrals should terminate one per hole, by itself, and anything else is wrong. "But EVERY electrician I have spoke to (or gotten chewed out from) says thats the way they do it... So now what?" Well...you are sure you are right and they are wrong. Tell your client that and suggest they, not you, have the electrician provide proof otherwise. There's only so much you can do when faced with this. The second photo is also wrong. Those particular terminals are designed for a single conductor and double-tapping is not allowed, period.

"Create a realistic Thanksgiving morning. What do you get?" The wife's family yelling at each other! How does that help? []

Jim, I agree in principle but, the few times I've tried the calculations, I've never been real comfortable with the results. Take my house for instance. I'm just under 3000sf if you include the basement. Gas heat for main floor, about 5000 watts total of electric heat on the 2nd, electric water heater, dual fuel range, etc, etc (no A/C) and allowing for a couple of my bigger workshop motors, I come in at just under 115-amps. Maybe that is all I actually need, especially as it's just the wife and me here, but my gut tells me the 200-amp is better. If I were doing this home for a buyer, I'd be very hesitant about predicting his family's future use and saying it was OK if it had a 125-amp service. The bit about the load calc that has always bugged me the most is the first section...everything above "Special Appliance Loads" in the code check table. A 3000sf house (lets say 4br/3½ba/1 kitchen) allows 27.81 amps for that section. Make that 30 amps on each 120 volt leg. Probably fine most of the year, but I can see a crowded house over the holiday season easily exceeding that as everyone gets up in the morning, some drying their hair while others make coffee and toast with all the interior and Xmas lights on. Fortunately, the housing stock around here is generally in good condition with almost all older homes having newer service and panels and it's been a long time since I "sensed" an undersize service. Probably the opposite is the norm here with even small 1200sf ramblers, with gas heat, water and range, often having 200-amp service. So yes, I agree that an HI should be able to do the math to determine a suspected undersized service. I would be OK reporting inadequate current adequacy if the "official" figures didn't add up. Future adequacy needs a crystal ball IMO and I think your average HI is best leaving that to the buyer and the electrician of his choice. Jodi's "they want me to make sure the electrical system is sufficient enough for them to install central air this spring." is one of those cases where I'd be very wary if the figures came out "OK" but were anywhere close.

I just highlighted the text, copied and pasted in the normal way as I would from, say, a DOC file. I know that some PDFs are protected (somehow) to prevent this, but my experience is that most that I want to grab text from aren't. So, I just try to see if it will allow me to do so. I have a screengrabber utility (to JPG) when that doesn't work.

That looks exactly like the old, original KT feed from my house to my garage.