Brandon Whitmore

Very good choice on not taking that job; I wouldn't have accepted the liability either.

I'll assume this is natural gas, since you say the gas will likely be shut off. Is this is visual inspection only? Are the gas lines low pressure or 2 psi? Are they concerned with leaks, and do they want an air test of the lines? What exactly are "components attached to the gas? (does this mean all gas fired equipment, bonding systems??) Hopefully, you are well versed in code requirements, manufacturer's installation instructions, etc. If that's the case, the inspection should be a slam dunk once you determine exactly what you are looking at.

I've thought this one over for a while, and realized, there's no telltale sign. Almost all of the round dial ones heat anticipators, while almost all of the digital ones do not, at least for gas furnaces. Over time, I've learned to recognize which ones are likely to have heat anticipators, and which ones don't. For jumping during a home inspection, I'd probably just cut power @ the furnace, pull either the red or white, power the furnace back up, and then place the jumpers onto R&W. That would be the safe bet, since not pulling a wire and jumping a 'stat with an anticipator would ruin it. For anyone not carrying 3 & 5 amp fuses, I'd stay away from jumping a furnace....... Jim, a gas co. buddy of mine (Darin/ Kaui) has you booked for an inspection in Newberg. The guy is scary smart, so if you have any utility type questions, he'd be a good guy to quiz while you're on site @ The Greens.

Per CFR49xxx, I'd consider turning on the utility riser valve a questionable practice by non utility personnel, though done quite often. Unless considered to be a "qualified operator", one should not turn it on. A couple of the bigger concerns I'd have is as to whether one does a "spot" or "drop" test to check for the detection of gas leaks when turning on the valve, and check for leaks. Quite often, the riser valve will leak as soon as it's turned back on-- it's got a serviceable valve core. We've tried to get away from people turning on our high pressure riser valve, which is why you'll see a ball valve "customer valve" on the gas line just downstream of the utility set.

Looks to be normal for that style, but without a video.??

No need to pull the digital t-stat from the wall for jumping the furnace unless they have a built in heat anticipator...

I've seen that a few times, usually when there's a wood working area in the space.

Thanks for the information and discussion. I'd read that other forum discussion prior to posting, but wanted more feedback. Jim, I sent you an e-mail from work today; hopefully you got it.

It's unnecessary to "vent" properly installed gas piping.

Thanks Jim, I'm just a cheapskate. I've got some UF sitting around...... From what I'm seeing on-line, UF seems to run around .50/.60 a foot, while submersible wire is around $1.00 a foot. PS: The western US Maxitrol rep. who just so happens to live in Tigard sounded interested in teaching a seminar for inspectors. If you're interested, I'll get you his number.

Hi guys, I'm in the process of replacing my deep well jet pump with a submersible unit. Is submersible wire really necessary, or can I get away with using UF-B? I'm not concerned with oil/ gas resistance....

Tom, In this particular case, this was found during a load check and subsequent odor investigation. I was supposed to have an easy job of changing out the old meter. I haven't a clue whether any portion of what I covered would fall within the scope of a bare minimum home inspection, but most of the guys on here like to exceed said standards when possible. I do know that the customer purchased this large commercial property around a year ago, and wasn't aware of any of these issues. They mentioned that neither their inspector, nor their mechanical contractor had said anything about this issue; they weren't happy. There are 5 buildings @ this location, all of which are plumbed the same way. The cost for repairs to their system to make everything right was well into the 5 figures. There were other issues with their HVAC system not mentioned here.

NW Natural has a commercial handbook available on-line: handbook It's in the slow process of being updated, but page 23 shows a few good examples of how MP regulators should be plumbed..

I'm not aware of any natural gas standards requiring specific clearances between an MP regulator and ignition sources. If they exist, they would most likely be specified by the manufacturer. That, or I need to do more studying... On MP regulators supplied with a vent limiting device, the vent limiter typically limits the release of gas to around 3 cfh (per Maxitrol), which is very little. With regulators that don't have vent limiters, they must be vented directly to the outdoors, so I don't see much of a need for any clearances to ignition sources. I haven't got a clue as to what temperatures a regulator can take-- it's never come up. Clearances for a service regulator (at a meter) are necessary because if the internal relief mechanism opens, there can be a substantial amount of gas exiting the vent. Gas pressure blowing out could be as high as service pressures (40 psi' ish for us).

Our service pressures (underground) in our class B mains (ones that feed end users) run in the 40psi range. The regulators at the meter are called service regulators. These are the ones that drop the 40 psi down to either 2 psi or inches w.c. supply pressure Read C410.1 & 410.2 in the link below for further details regarding MP regulators... C410.1

Unfortunately, I don't do well in front of groups, so I'll have to decline, but... The regional Maxitrol sales rep. lives and works out of the Tualatin/ Tigard area. We recently had him come out and present at one of our commercial technician meetings. You should definitely try to get him to present at one of yours. Once he retires, you'll probably lose any future opportunity for something such as this. He's one of the last Maxitrol rep's who doesn't work out of their Michigan HQ (I think it was Michigan). I'd assume he could cater towards home inspectors.....

The improper regulators were one of the reasons I shut gas off to the equipment at this place. The other issue was that there were a bunch of gas leaks throughout the piping system. Other minor issues: 1)These particular brass line valves are not approved for 2 psi gas systems. 2)The required sediment traps, which also function as the pressure taps are missing. 3)The required pressure taps at the downstream / low pressure side of the regulators were missing as well. This was a non- issue for the ones plumbed in with flex connectors, but was an issue with others hard piped with unions. A properly plumbed 2 psi system should have the following, in order from 2 psi piping downstream to the equipment: 1)A line valve. 2)A sediment trap/ pressure tap. 3)The MP regulator. 4)A pressure tap.

Gas piping/ regulator issues I wrote up, that are visible in these pictures.... 1) MP regulators have round bodies, while RV regulators are square. This is the easiest way to recognize that there's a problem. MP regulators are supposed to be used to drop pressure from pounds of pressure to inches (27.67" w.c. = 1 psi) The codes require lock up type regulators for 2psi systems...RV regulators do not lock up- they slowly build. The last picture shows pressure above 14" w.c. (max. for low pressure systems) Within a few minutes, pressure on the regulators shown in the above pictures built from 8" all the way to about 46" w.c.) Standard pressure (low pressure) systems do not require MP regulators-- regulators are typically built into equipment combination valves nowadays. If you look at these combination valves, you will see that with natural gas, they typically call for a range of inlet pressure from say 3.5" to 10" w.c. You will also see where they are listed/labeled/ tested for a max. 1/2 psi (read a combination valve on a furnace or water heater if curious). Over pressurizing the appliance combination valves in this case most likely voids any manufacturers warranty, violates the listing, etc. What's interesting is the combination of issues that develop. Anything from having equipment running way over or under fired, to appliance regulators locking up, to pressures pulsing (inshot burner flames pulsating) I saw all of this @ the job above-- there were 14 pieces of equipment, all of which were installed the same way.

The defects are covered by manufacturers installation instructions, as well as the codes. For future reference..... would it be better not to play the "find the defects" game, and to just make a post showing the issues?

This picture should help. Click to Enlarge 34.18 KB

Jim, If you're counting defects per furnace, there's quite a few more. [] I'll give it a while before spilling what I see. Let's just say it wasn't safe enough to leave the gas meter turned on; the customer was far from happy with me. This 2psi system has been installed for over 20 years, and was approved by the AHJ. The defects were missed by the "home" inspector a year ago, and missed by several HVAC contractors who have had service contracts here.

2 psi systems for natural gas are becoming more common by the day, so I thought this might help someone...... I inspect these systems daily, and it seems like only about half are properly plumbed. Some installations are downright dangerous. There's 2psi inlet pressure to these Maxitrol regulators. Can you spot the defects.... Click to Enlarge 42 KB Click to Enlarge 25.8 KB

Denny, I believe the main breaker Jim is asking about is the one that has the screw attaching it into place; the main breaker for this panel. If the main breaker is 100 amps, then the panel would be good for 100 amps and not 125.

Uhmmm/ ummmm/ mmmm/ uhhhh-- Erby nailed it; it was a pause while figuring out how to explain the thread protector location in that picture that must have tipped over.

Oh yeah.... Oh wait, the month has just begun.