Brandon Whitmore

I can start to smell a natural gas leak when there's a leak of appx. 250ppm at the source (based on my small tipped wand I use), and I'm not a woman. Usually, I can smell the gas odor when there are free air readings of 0-20 ppm. The LEL of natural gas is around 50,000ppm. Most people start to scramble and evacuate their home when free air readings are very minute (usually less than 100ppm free air). Your nose is the best instrument, followed by a good spray bottle with the proper mixture of soap and water (seam solution)

I installed one about 8 years ago; I swore I'd never go that route again. It turned out really well, but I made a mess.

Thanks for the entertainment. My favorite sentence from the article: Hmmm. Then, to make things more interesting, he added a weight bench.

I inspect many older natural draft unit heaters, so as of right now I still believe that unlisted single walled pipe is acceptable for that application. I started to worry I was missing something obvious on my inspections when you said "every" unit heater vented with single wall is illegal. As of right now, I'm only aware of a couple of listed single walled vents (Z-Flex for one) that are listed for cat. 3 venting, but I'm still digging. Bill, I believe the proper code citation preventing unlisted single wall vent from being used with a mechanical draft system is C503.3.3 (1), at least for OR's mechanical code here. But, when I read table C503.4, it indicates type 3 venting systems must be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturers installation instructions. These instructions often specify unlisted single wall vent pipe with 3 screws per connection, and a double tape wrap (such as the Modine unit heater I linked to), with a single section of B vent at a wall termination.

If the end user follows the manufacturers instructions to the letter, and something happens, I guess the manufacturer had better have some good lawyers. Sure do. Seeing as how I am inspecting these things several days a week, i'd better find out why single wall vent pipe isn't allowed for use with unit heaters. Do you have a source or info. you can send me? Our building code: Mechanical Code appears to indicate that single walled vent pipe is allowed. See C503.7 Unit heater manufacturers specifically call for single walled venting for horizontal runs Example Will you point me to your source that indicates single walled venting is never allowed for horizontal venting?

Hi Bob, I saw a couple of your posts on IN regarding this as well. So how does a manufacturer get away with providing installation instructions that conflict with codes/ industry standards?

Our service technicians don't actually do any installations, just inspections of new and existing equipment. It's their job to determine whether the installation is safe and functional, not to determine whether it's the best installation option. If equipment is found to be improperly installed or unsafe, they have a few options depending on the severity of the problem: 1)They can just leave a form indicating there are installation issues, but leave the equipment on. 2)They can shut the equipment off and hang a red tag indicating the equipment is unsafe to use until repaired. 3)They can disconnect and cap the gas line and hang a red tag. Disconnecting the line is reserved for major issues.

Thanks for the info. Bill. I probably should have started 2 separate posts in order to simplify things. We rarely see either installation in these parts. These have come up recently, and we're trying to set up a training class for service technicians. It will be pretty basic, such as when a barometric damper is required, inter-lock requirements, allowable venting types for horizontal vs. vertical venting, etc. I guess I'd better get my terminology straight. Tjernland considers the in-line inducer an option for B vent installations, and is for vertical venting applications. They don't require any type of sealed venting system for this, as per their FAQ section. This is the device I'm looking at: Inducer Installation We see these used where there is a long horizontal run of single wall or B vent, such as in an attic or crawlspace. There is typically no actual vent connector, just a single run of either A or B vent from the appliance to the roof line. There are no combustion air issues typically (we check). The "booster fan" I was talking about, is actually a sidewall venting product/ power venter seen here: Sidewall vent Tjernland calls for type B vent for this unit Instructions. If I'm reading this right, I'm confused due to the fact that type B vent is supposed to be for vertical vent installations only. Also, depending on where I pull up installation instructions, and for what model, I get varying info as to whether B vent is needed, or whether sealed single wall venting is necessary. It seems like the Selkirk Saf T Vent would be a better option, as it's approved for cat. 1,2,3&4 venting.

I'm looking for information regarding installation requirements for in-line inducers and boosters for gas fired appliance vents. So far, I've found that Tjernland manufactures both inducers and boosters for this purpose.. Are there other well known manufacturers of inducers and boosters intended for this use. What are your thoughts regarding this recommendation for single wall vent? http://www.tjernlund.com/Tjernlund_8504003.pdf http://www.tjernlund.com/Tjernlund_S...it_8500594.pdf So far, the only vent type I've found that is actually rated/ listed for Cat 1,2,3&4 venting is the Selkirk Saf-T vent: Selkirk: Saf-T Vent EZ Seal Under Tjernlands FAQ section, they indicate that their in-line draft inducer is allowed to be used with B vent. I contacted Selkirk and Dura-Vent to get their take, and only received a response from one of them, which was not helpful. All they said was that B vent was for vertical venting only, and left it at that. My concern is that in- line inducers still create positive pressure inside of the B vent for several feet.

This is what Selkirk has to say: B vent See #5

I'm not going to check the spec's on this fireplace, but..... If the flame changes from when first turned on, and pilot starts to pull away from the t-pile/t-couple, you likely have a secondary air issue. Pull the glass face off and fire the fireplace. See if it burns properly... The pilot may be partially plugged, and when the burner kicks on, it is affected more. Without seeing it, there are too many possibilities. I don't suspect a bad valve or bad t-couple/ T-pile. If the safety stays lit and functions fine, and the thing operates properly for several minutes, something else is going on.

Robert, Read this: Vent

To the OP: Feel free to put you and your family at risk if you wish. Ignorance is bliss, until.......... Here's an option. When you want to use the gas fired equipment, install the vent/liner, but make sure it runs all of the way up to the top of the chimney. Then, when you wish to burn wood, pull out the liner, disconnect, and cap opening.

Remind me to hire you for my draw inspections[]

My Goodman GMH95046 is running strong after about 6 years of service. The installer was pretty particular (me), which likely has helped. Cost: $700'ish shipped to my door. Here's a high efficiency Goodman @ about the same BTU range as the OP's with free shipping @ a good price: http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduc ... =453062322 Or, for an 80% unit: http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduc ... =453064680

Unless furnace rated (very unlikely), the direct vent fireplaces are typically known as a decorative appliance. E-mail them back letting them know you were saving them on their electric bill by not recommending one be installed, and that if they are looking to improve their home's efficiency, they should remove the unit and patch up the big hole in the wall. Then request they share in the savings on the electric bill, including interest, for the last couple of years, and bill them for your time in formulating a response.

John, I wouldn't waste my money trying to heat a vented shop. If you want a warm work area, how about closing off a section and insulating it?

I've seen plenty of scorched plastic/vinyl on plenum insulation as well. About the only time I've seen house fires or signs of major scorching @ venting areas are when people place combustible items atop natural draft water heaters.

Dessicant beads--they are what absorb the moisture between the panes of glass.

That LP looks like it should be rotted/ damaged along the faulty grade area, and likely from the slab level down where sandwiched. Paint and caulk doesn't hide the damage on that stuff. Just start pushing on it with your finger. Also, squeeze the bottom edges with the siding pinched between your thumb and index finger. Any softness will be felt quite easily.

It looks like there's a combination of dirty burners/carry-overs and primary air shutters being out of adjustment (most likely).

I know it isn't quite what you had in mind, but as far as pickup trucks go, the new dodge 1/2 ton diesel is nearing the 30mpg mark I believe.

Looks like someone owned stock in 2x's..

I'm not aware of any big issues with the G60, and see plenty of them.

Only 1 valve is required.