Katanadave27 Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 I inspected this 1980 home over the weekend and found that the Service Panel was installed upside down. I am having a hard time trying to justify writing this up as I can't find any codes to back up my concern. Is this something the client should be aware of or am I wrong in the interpretation that the Service panel should always have the service entrance cable entering through the top of panel? Download Attachment: Julius Oneal 065.jpg 93.77 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Hi, You're wrong. The SEC can come in top bottom or sides. Some panels can be mounted either up and down or on their sides. What determines whether it's rightside up or not depends on the labeling. Unless the labeling says that it must be installed the other way, I wouldn't write it up. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Not to disagree but courses that I have taken in the past have stated that SEC can enter from any area of Service panel but must connect through top of main and then buss wiring should flow accordingly. I am also attaching another pic of the panel with cover in place. Download Attachment: Julius Oneal 055.jpg 79.46 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Mike's right, it's perfectly acceptable unless otherwise specified by the manufacturer. I sort of wonder about the ones with the main positioned vertically (there is a rule about "off" being handle-down and "on" being handle-up, but I can't recall if it would apply to a main), but this one is horizontal. Brian G. Mostly Horizontal Today [^] www.accuspecllc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 thanxz guys...I will take your advice and run with it...I will try to check IRC before sending report...but I am comfortable enough not writing it up as well...just needed a 2nd opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Katanadave27 thanxz guys...I will take your advice and run with it...I will try to check IRC before sending report...but I am comfortable enough not writing it up as well...just needed a 2nd opinion. As long as the main breaker is horizontal, it's fine. http://www.squared.com/us/misc/faqInter ... enDocument http://www.squared.com/us/misc/faqInter ... enDocument http://www.squared.com/us/misc/faqInter ... enDocument - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Brian G. Mike's right, it's perfectly acceptable unless otherwise specified by the manufacturer. I sort of wonder about the ones with the main positioned vertically (there is a rule about "off" being handle-down and "on" being handle-up, but I can't recall if it would apply to a main), but this one is horizontal. Brian G. Mostly Horizontal Today [^] www.accuspecllc.com The rule applies to any circuit breaker regardless of its purpose (main, branch, etc.). If it's oriented vertically, 'up' has to be on and 'down' has to be off. Ref: NEC 240.81. Since 1978 at least, possibly earlier. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Jim Katen The rule applies to any circuit breaker regardless of its purpose (main, branch, etc.). If it's oriented vertically, 'up' has to be on and 'down' has to be off. Ref: NEC 240.81. Since 1978 at least, possibly earlier. Ah-so. I thought so, but I wasn't 100% sure without looking it up. You da Main. [] Brian G. CRS Victim [:-dunce] www.accuspecllc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Guys I really appreciate all the help and info. This is a great site. I am only in my 3rd year so I am still learning alot. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMustola Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Is that panel outside. It does not look like a panel rated for weather exposure. It's very rare to have a service panel outside is Michigan. I know in some states it is common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Now that's a good observation that slipped by before. It does look like it's outside, and it's definitely not a raintight panel. Was it outside Dave? Brian G. Water + Electricity = BAD! [:-wiltel] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yes it was outside. I do not know if the panel was rated for outdoor exposure. I am going to check again on my next trip to the home. I will keep you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I do remember seeing rated for outdoor use on the inside of the cover panel labeling, but can't recall exactly what it said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I can tell you from the photo that it is not a raintight panel, no way. Plus you can't flip a raintight, it won't work. Some conehead put an indoor panel on an exterior wall. Brian G. One of the Coneheads That Didn't Notice [:-dunce] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Thanxz Brian I will put an amendment on the report. I suggested that a licensed electrician come out to look at the home and test system as there were some outlets not functioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlskfoster Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 That is definately a flush mount inside panel and would not be allowed for exterior use. To expound on mounting a panel upside down, it would would definately not be allowed on a raintight panel because you would have knockouts on the top which could allow water penetration, the exterior cover would open to the bottom restricting access and it would probably catch rain as well. On an exterior panel you cannot even penetrate the upper two-thirds of a panel unless you use a Myers hub or other approved device that prevents water from entering at the penetration. Buster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Good point Buster....I will call the realtor right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Good observation from Mark. Clearly, that panel isn't rated for weather exposure. However. . . I've got to wonder why it looks so good. If one of those panels were mounted outdoors, exposed to the to weather, since 1980 in my climate it wouldn't look anywhere near that good. It'd be rusted all to hell. Was it a newer replacement panel or was it under some sort of overhang? - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katanadave27 Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 No, it appeared to be from original installation of panel...I did not notice any old panel mounts or any information suggesting it was a newer panel from construction. With that being said...it does appear that this home is some type of investment property because it is owned by a company...so I can assume they do this for a living and probably try to cut corners where they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computerguy Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 This is a newbie post, so please be patient. Are the breakers labeled? If they aren't, it could cause a whole bunch of grief for the new owners. I thought (being a homeowner and not an electrician) that the National Electrical Code required the breakers to be labeled. RWW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi, Yeah, it does (IRC 3304.11/NEC 110.22) but the reason nobody has mentioned it is that the deadfront cover might have the labels at the corresponding positions of these breakers or there could be a legend pasted to the door of the panel showing location/purpose of breakers. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleRidge Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 It does appear that the panel is an indoor panel used in an outdoor application. I would also be concerned about all of the splices in the panel box which is not allowed. It also appears that the phases are not properly color coded. Jimmy Filingeri Maple Ridge Consulting, LLC Hopewell Junction, New York Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Hi, I don't know about NYS but if you're going strictly by the NEC splices are allowed in the panel. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I showed the photo to one of my elect. engineeers, here are his text comments: Panels can be mounted either way. It is okay to bottom feed a panel. The problem with this is it is a NEMA 1 rated panel, indoor use only. It is not rated for exterior use and is not weather tight. Also, I don't see a ground wire connected anywhere. Also, why not just cut the feeder wires to the correct length versus try to loop it around the panel? Also, the panel appears to be 200 amp and the meter socket is definitely not rated for 200 amps. Too small for that. That's all from him, not my comments. Konrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by Konrad I showed the photo to one of my elect. engineeers, here are his text comments: Panels can be mounted either way. It is okay to bottom feed a panel. The problem with this is it is a NEMA 1 rated panel, indoor use only. It is not rated for exterior use and is not weather tight. I think we all agree on that point. Also, I don't see a ground wire connected anywhere. The picture isn't clear enough to see that one way or the other. What you can see is all the equipment grounding conductors gathered together like spaghetti on a fork and shoved under one lug. There could easily be an electrode grounding conductor in there among the weeds. Also, why not just cut the feeder wires to the correct length versus try to loop it around the panel? Lazy electrician. Also, the panel appears to be 200 amp and the meter socket is definitely not rated for 200 amps. Too small for that. You're engineer needs to get out in the field more. I can't actually read the spec on the meter but it sure looks like a class 200 meter in a 200-amp can to me. Brian G, what do you think? - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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