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The Boys Be Musing About Infrared Technology


Scottpat

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Originally posted by Bain

All I'll say, Mike, is you two would look awfully spiffy scooting down the road together.

Hey, Chris. What happens when you scan the trees at night with the camera? Can you spot where the squirrels, birds, raccoons, or whatever are nesting?

I'll bet he could spot you if you came sneaking up on his house wearing that ninja suit and carrying that sword.

Can you say Glock, children?

It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood,

a beautiful day in the neighborhood,

would you be mine,

could you mine,

would you be my target.

OT - OF!!!

M.

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I purchased one last month. I have taken it to all my inspections. I am still telling folks that I am still training and learning. I was in a house this week with a drop ceiling. I pull out the infrared camera just to see what I can see. There was a tile in a spot that was not easily accessible that was warmer than the rest. I moved a couple tiles shined the light back there and found a heat duct that had disconnected itself at the seam leaving about a 1/4 inch gap around it. The register still had a fair amount of heat coming out. I am finding out that the IR camera is not the last word but it does alert me to areas to pay attention too.

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You guys really got me going with all this IR talk. I've thought about it in the past, always thought I'd like to get into it someday, like some others here, I thought that day was 2-3 years away.

Now, I'm seriously thinking about making it my next challange.

I know I could probably teach myself how to use and read the camera, but I think being certified will get me into more doors.

Flir has an interesting course. A bit pricey, but I would imagine they are the best... or are they?

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My questions:

What if any things will the camera indicate that I couldn't identify normally on my own visually?

The camera will find things that you would not be able to find with just your eyes. IR can also help you substantiate and give you further insight into conditions that you would (maybe) find with just your eyes, but you can see them better. In the case of water leaks, maybe you would see it, bare eyed and maybe you wouldn't. But, if you find it, you can also, easier, find the cause and not have to defer so much. The clients like that. Less running around.id="blue">
Will the use of the camera increase my skill at spotting problems visually?
Yes, in my experience. Besides, you can back up your strictly visual findings with proof. You are not gonna take your moisture meter and teste every single square inch of interior wall, are you? With the Camera you can find the questionable spots and test them with the meter. You miss less.id="blue">
How much time will I burn trying to investigate anomalies indicated at an inspection?
Depends on how much time you want to spend. How good an inspection do you want to do?id="blue">
If I start coming to new conclusions about insulation and weatherization how will I share that information in an inspection?
Educating the client and writing it in your report. Sure, the first 10 inspections or so, you will find you have to write and explain more, but then you get into the groove.id="blue">
How can active thermography be employed to better indicate suspected issues in a normal inspection?
You have one more tool to back up what you already know. And, you will see problems that you never even suspected and then have to back them up with other tools. The camera is only as good as the brain it is attached to.id="blue">

What did you do, about gas leaks before you had a combustable gas detector? What about CO. What about moisture?

The camera is just another tool.

The important thing is having BOTH the theoretical understanding AND the field experience.

Takes time.

Hope this helps;

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Steve,

Hang in there. Since they are only 25 minutes away, I put in a call to the folks at Fluke the other day and approached them with the idea of developing a training/purchase package tailored specifically for home inspectors. The guy said he'd talk to the department involved with that and get back to me.

I think the way to do it is to have an introductory training course to familiarize folks with the technology and it's capabilities and let them play with the stuff first hand, before deciding to make the leap. That could be a one day course that would transition directly into a Level 1 course. Students who decide to purchase during the introductory course would get their own machine and then hang around for the level 1 course while the others would go home a lot smarter about the product and better able to decide whether it'll be right for the future of their companies.

It would be pretty cool if it could be a whole package, flight, hotel, meals, IR device, and training rolled into one ball of wax for a decent price, such as the way the Watts guys did their IR course for inspectors last September. The guy at Fluke told me that they sub-contract their training out to a professional skills training provider and that the provider has the capability of setting up the training anywhere in the country. So, if they'd be willing to get involved, maybe there's a way to put the idea on the road so that inspectors can commute to the training.

These are just ideas - heck I don't even know if they'll be willing to get involved - but give me some time to see what, if anything, I can come up with.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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Originally posted by StevenT

I spoke to a fellow at Fluke, their equiptment actually sounds pretty good. But, I really don't know the difference.

The class you are working on sounds great.

Speaking of Watts, any chance of a repeat?

Yes, Watts wants to do it again and they want to do it better this time. We've got to get off our duff and begin planning that sucker.

OT - OF!!!

M.

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I have used the Flir Bcam SD now for a couple of weeks on inspections. I have found a lot of stuff with it but nothing important that I couldn't have found visually yet.

That's not to say I don't consider it a signifcant benefit. I do and now I can't imagine doing an inspection without one.

It absolutely hits a home run when it comes to identifying insulation issues; many that I would have missed before mainly because I didn't understand the significance of what I was looking at.

It's caused me to modify my inspection of attics. Before the camera if I popped the top on the attic and found undisturbed insulation covering the tops of the joists or bottom chords of the trusses, I made my inspection from the access. Now, with the camera, I have reason to get in there and look further even if I can't see any issues from the access.

For example a few inspections ago, besides seeing the typical insulation type anomalies, I found a curious series of small round anomalies in the field of a bedroom ceiling. I popped the top to the attic and the insulation was full and undisturbed and I couldn't see any of the issues that I saw from scanning below. So, I ventured into the attic and correlated visually what I was seeing below. When I got over to the bedroom ceiling where I saw the round anomalies I couldn't see anything at first but I persisted and in moment it became obvious there was drip line thru the white fiberglass insulation. I looked up at the rafters and they were dry but stained. I felt the insulation and found it damp. So, I am thinking what the heck and I turn back around to follow the rafters up toward the ridge and sure enough there was big ol leak in the roof. Now, pre-camera I would have missed it because my prior policy was not to go trapsing off thru someones pristine insulation and also in this case there was no way to see the leak from anywhere near the access and no visual clue from below.

One of the reasons I bought the camera was in hope it would help me image leaks around toilets etc. Unfortunately it looks like it won't do this without pulsing the area with a thermal transient. In other words you have to find the problem first either visually or with a moisture meter then take a bunch of time to empirically pulse the area and then scan it while the induced thermal transient is decaying. And who's got time for that durring a normal inspection not to mention it's probably not going to be repeatable subsequent to the inspection. I haven't even started doing this actively, but I have stumbled upon imaging things when they were thermally decaying.

Another thing, clients are really impressed but some can't correlate what they are seeing in the thermal image with the problem visually. That's where the new cameras that shoot a normal pic and then overlay the thermal anomaly on top of it would be handy.

Chris, Oregon

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You can create the poor mans version - take the thermal pic and a regular digital of the same area and place them side by side in the report. You can also edit the digital with a box, circle, arrows,etc., to indicate the area related to the thermal image.

Yea, thats what I do for the report. But when you do your walk & talk that is where they can get confused at just looking at a thermal image.

The Bcam doesn't have a lot of resolution. I think it's good enough but like with the first digital cameras more pixels are better. The HI's that can hold out for another few years will get the next gen with higher resolution and more bells and whistles at a price less than a Bcam today.

Thats if they're still in business.

Chris, Oregon

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Originally posted by Bain

Chris,

When you're scanning ceilings, how difficult is it to diffentiate between insulation problems and water leaks?

Thermal shorts, air leakage, and problems with insulation are a cake walk to identify for the most part. So far, 99% of the time, when I think I have finally found a moisture problem, it is not.

Now remember I have only just started using a thermal camera. I am still waiting to find that holy grail that couldn't be found visually or with a moisture meter. I starting to lose hope. [;)]

To be honest so far I think it would be difficult. Even when I looked at the big leak in the roof that I was talking about which was plain to see visually, the thermal camera could barely pick up the moisture on the roof decking. I suspect that if you hit it with a thermal pulse the difference in thermal decay might image it better or if you were somehow able to drop the relative humidity substantially.

Water in the attic on the decking given a high relative humidity is going to be very close to the background temperature of the roof decking.

Despite all the hype it's not a moisture meter.

Chris, Oregon

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Thanks for the thoughtful response. It's interesting, what you say about the IR camera not being a moisture meter. Whenever I'm in a finished basement, and have no clue whether I'm surrounded by rot and decay lurking behind the drywall, I edge closer toward convincing myself that I should get a camera sooner, rather than later.

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An IR camera is not an X-ray but... it will increase your spidey sense a leapful.

Intuitively, I knew that besides the marketing edge I expected it to give me in this toughest of times , I fully expected that it would have a substantial educational benefit and that benefit (the increase in spidey sense) was the real payoff.

Chris, Oregon

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Originally posted by hausdok

Originally posted by StevenT

I spoke to a fellow at Fluke, their equiptment actually sounds pretty good. But, I really don't know the difference.

The class you are working on sounds great.

Speaking of Watts, any chance of a repeat?

Yes, Watts wants to do it again and they want to do it better this time. We've got to get off our duff and begin planning that sucker.

OT - OF!!!

M.

Mike,

I'll be happy to help orginize another Watts class, I'm not to far away, (2-3 hours) I'm a member of the St. Louis ASHI chapter and should be able to get some attendies from there. Let me know what you would like done and I'll do it.

That is anything except drag Les back to his room at 7pm wearing those stupid pink pumps. Oh and that thing w/ Kurt is off the list too. Otherwise I'm game.

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Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

An IR camera is not an X-ray but... it will increase your spidey sense a leapful.

Intuitively, I knew that besides the marketing edge I expected it to give me in this toughest of times , I fully expected that it would have a substantial educational benefit and that benefit (the increase in spidey sense) was the real payoff.

Chris, Oregon

Yes, very helpful. Thanks much.

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Before buying a Cam, it is important to know what you would like to be able to do with it and what each models limitations are.

The job that I lost (and I say lost because it was a scheduled job that was cancelled), was not a basic home inspection. My client needed a report for a "certified" EIFS installer that would be accurate enough to use for bidding and repair purposes.

Now, I am quite capable of doing a visual inspection and reporting all of the installation errors, damage and probable leaks, but I also needed to include and map moisture readings and damage to the structure below.

My WWD is a very good tool, but really not the right tool for the job. I would not have confidence in the results, and besides that, There is no way I am going to scan every inch of the system. Yes, I could have probed, but how much probing can you do to a building that your client does not own?

The proper cam, with the proper lenses and with PROPER TRAINING would have made it easy. What I am looking at is about $16k - $20k. There is a super duper model for $30k.

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A moisture meter, WWD or other, will show moisture no matter what the temperature is. If the moisture has been there awhile and there is no temperature differential, no camera is going to disclose it. Generally, the B-cam will show you as much as the big bucks model. Of course, if there is a temp difference, the mapping will be easy. Neither tool is going to show hidden damage, just where to look for and verify it.

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Hi Richard,

I also thought that the IR would not show damage below. When speaking to a representative, he told me that it would show damage... to a degree. Perhaps the interior temperature transfers differently through a piece of rotted or sheathing.

As far as mositure that has been there for a while. I was told that it would show up. I'm guessing it MIGHT have something to do with the fact that surrounding temperatures are always changing and different elements "catch up" at different speeds.

So we could be talking resolution and/or sensitivity. It may also have something to do with someones ability to interpert the readings.

In some of the advertising re: ICAMS, they show a large picture of the side of a building. It shows leaks within the walls. I'm curious if this picture (of a large area) was taken with an entry level cam and the Thermographer stood two blocks away?

For this reason, I feel that it will be important to be able to change lenses. I don"t believe the entry level cams can do that.

I am sure that as I become more familiar with IR, my opinions will change and be based more on facts rather than rumor.

I just don't want to "save" money by buying an entry level tool that will not do what I would like to be able to do.

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