The Boys Be Musing About Infrared Technology

[StevenT]

Kurt,

I agree with needing the certification... and the training that it represents. At some point I would like to go beyond the Class 1.

The problem is that most schools do not provide you with a cam. Yes, there are courses that will train you without a cam, but they clearly state that you will not be able to do some of the exercises. Even the one that Mike speaks of gave me the feeling that the guys that wanted to stay and complete the course will need a cam.

Check out this page at Fluke, there is some useful info.

FLUKE

[hausdok]

Originally posted by StevenT

Kurt,

I agree with needing the certification... and the training that it represents. At some point I would like to go beyond the Class 1.

The problem is that most schools do not provide you with a cam. Yes, there are courses that will train you without a cam, but they clearly state that you will not be able to do some of the exercises. Even the one that Mike speaks of gave me the feeling that the guys that wanted to stay and complete the course will need a cam.

Check out this site, there is some useful info.

FLUKE

At this point, it's just an idea. I don't see why someone couldn't do the level 1 thing and not purchase a camera. However, I think if you're trying to put on a program like this, with the intent of reducing prices by keeping it as a one-stop-shopping deal, that there would be a an additional cost associated for not purchasing. After all, you can get the training anywhere - so why would a manufacturer even bother to work with anyone to try and develop such a program otherwise?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[StevenT]

Mike,

What you say makes sense. I guess it all depends upon the savings.

[kurt]

Originally posted by hausdok

After all, you can get the training anywhere - so why would a manufacturer even bother to work with anyone to try and develop such a program otherwise?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

The camera retailers are doing joint deals; that's where the money saving is. The mfg's. understand training is necessary, so they farm it out. The mfg's. can't exist as islands.

The advice I got came from someone who's had a camera for a year. He now thinks getting a camera first is a huge mistake.

One can get online training & take a test here....

http://www.infraspection.com/courses_di ... neral.html

After that, I really respect Chris & Will's descriptions of "it's just a tool, you have to use it to know it". I think this is a very, very tricky bit of learning curve & analysis. Camera comfort is something that can only be attained after years of use.

(How do youse guys do that cool thing where you write "click here" so the "click here" is the link?)

[hausdok]

Originally posted by kurt

(How do youse guys do that cool thing where you write "click here" so the "click here" is the link?)

It's explained in the FAQ under the home tab above.

Basically, you put the proper tags in front of and behind the link, write the title of the link, such as Click Here, and then you put the tag that indicates the end of the URL after that.

Here's an example using apostrophes instead of the brackets which are supposed to be used.

(url="https://www.inspectorsjournal.com")Click Here!(/url)

The 'tool' comment is interesting. When I talked to the Fluke guy, he said that they've designed their instrument to be a tool that will get used and he called the ones that most of the other manufacturers produce "scientific instruments."

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Chris Bernhardt]

I can see a need for a non-HI to need to take the level 1 cert. I am not convinced at all that a Kurt M., Hausdok or a Jim K. need the course to intelligently learn how to use an IR camera.

These guys are just too smart to mess up by not confirming some unexplanable thermal anomaly. From what I can gather it's been HI's that are barely qualified to be HI's that are making rediculous calls with their IR cameras.

It's really not that hard especially when you already know buildings and are well versed in building science to pick up an IR camera and be useful with it.

I can't understand why the dam courses are so expensive? I have taken the free online one from ITC.

I think as soon as some of the senior brethren purchase cameras and start using them that their opinions and shared experiences will be worth more than any cert 1 course.

Chris, Oregon

[Richard Stanley]

I attended a 1-day Flir course in Orlando prior to buying a camera nearly 2 years ago. The instructor had several different cameras and some of the other attendees brought cameras. My main purpose was to learn about interpretation. Operating the camera was the easy part. I still believe interpretation is the most important. Once you start using it, you will learn more just by verifying what you think you see. Something that was glaringly obvious was that the better cameras produced better pictures. If I was going to pursue more than just HIs with it, I would have a better camera.

Like a lot of other education, on site participation works better for me than on-line.

Steven, as for hidden damage, you can set up your own experiments at home. Like Ronald Reagan said - trust, but, verify!!

[Nolan Kienitz]

Check out the EZ Therm products. I know a couple of HIs in the DFW market who have them. Much higher resolution than some of the more highly advertised products.

EZ Therm

I've also noted some postings on the IR boards where there are some IR cameras coming up for sale as HIs (or someone) is getting out of the business or comments being made that the "IR market just didn't develop in my area."

Some of the IR forum postings also caution about HIs using for general home inspections ... mostly I think due to lack of understanding of the product and the ability to adequately read the image.

It is an educational process to say the least and I'm soaking up all I can before I put this tool in my budget plan.

[Chris Bernhardt]

I want to try and dispel this idea that an HI needs to be concerned with properly interpreting a thermal image.

An HI using a IR camera in an inspection is not like a doctor looking at an X-ray. For one if a doctor could look at an X-ray see some suspected anomaly, then be able to risk free open up a patient and take a look visually, he wouldn't even bother with trying to spend more than a second considering the anomaly.

We as HI's have a distinct advantage of being able to confirm for the most part anomalies we see. I think it's rediculous for an HI or a non-HI thermographer to go scan someones house without confirming the anomaly by other means. Non-HI thermographers should absolutely not be looking at houses. The IR camera is a tool and it's got to have a brain behind it. I imagine that after some of the basic science the rest of these courses are to teach a non-HI what an HI already knows.id="blue">

The guys who should be teaching the future of us how to use an IR camera in an inspection don't even own cameras yet.

I wonder how many senior HI's at first said they don't need no stinkin moisture meter to do their job? I tell you what let's take their moisture meters away from them now and send them out on inspections and see how nervous they get.

I have only had my camera for few weeks and I can't live without it now any more than I can live without my moisture meters.

I got a call from a little old lady client who I had done a one year warranty inspection a few years ago for. She said she was feeling a lot of cold air leaking in at the baseboard in one of the bedrooms and wanted me to take a look. Now that I have an IR camera I was able to nicely image the problem for her and the next contractor.

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that image was on one side of the floor register and this one is to the other.

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She was also missing insulation in the attic along the entire back of the house. I reported it to her in her one year warranty inspection but I guess she never got it fixed.

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The security system installer did a number on the insulation in places.

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Chris, Oregon

[Scottpat]

Originally posted by Nolan Kienitz

Check out the EZ Therm products. I know a couple of HIs in the DFW market who have them. Much higher resolution than some of the more highly advertised products.

EZ Therm

I've also noted some postings on the IR boards where there are some IR cameras coming up for sale as HIs (or someone) is getting out of the business or comments being made that the "IR market just didn't develop in my area."

Some of the IR forum postings also caution about HIs using for general home inspections ... mostly I think due to lack of understanding of the product and the ability to adequately read the image.

It is an educational process to say the least and I'm soaking up all I can before I put this tool in my budget plan.

Any idea how the EZ line compares in price to the others? I hate when a vendor does not publish a price list!

[Richard Stanley]

http://www.nachi.tv/episode22

Yeah, I know, but, there is some interesting info here.

[Chris Bernhardt]

From todays inspection. I found moisture in the floor at the corners of a south facing french door (no surprise) by scanning first with my moisture meter. I looked at it passively with the IR camera and could barely distinguish anything so I heated the area up with a blow dryer and then got a good pic.

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They cut a lap siding board and slapped on a ledger without flashing it and now the siding is damaged and who knows what else.

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Establishing shot taken from the west and IR images from the east. My bad.

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Siding to the right of the sliding glass door

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Siding between the sliding glass door and the man door.

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Siding right of the man door.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

What are the 3 IR images showing?

[Chris Bernhardt]

The blue is colder. This is where the higher concentrations of moisture were. Normally what I have seen is lower temperatures along the drip edge where the moisture has been concentrated. In this case you can seen the concentration streaking down from the ledger. The surface of the siding was dry.

I have shown it using the rainbow pallete rather than the iron pallete.

Again, you can see why one of the newer cameras that can overlay the anomaly on the visual pic would be nice.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

Oh, OK....duh. You explained it, but I wasn't hearing.

I was thinking the problem was the door shown in the establishing shot. It's the door on the deck above, no?

If that's the case, I get it completely. Very interesting. Looks like the wall is full of water.

[randynavarro]

So, are you telling the client that there's water in the walls or are you saying there's simply a "moisture" problem?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

The blue is colder. This is where the higher concentrations of moisture were. Normally what I have seen is lower temperatures along the drip edge where the moisture has been concentrated. In this case you can seen the concentration streaking down from the ledger. The surface of the siding was dry.

How do you know it's water and not the shadow of the deck?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Chris Bernhardt]

How do you know it's water and not the shadow of the deck?

The siding board at the ledger is visibly damaged (swelling, checking, mold, soft to probing). There are moistures stains, elevated moisture readings and swell patterns that indicate water is coming from above at the ledger all which were correlating with the IR images.

It was easy to see visually what was going on. The IR is just helping image the problem.

Another interesting thing was in the detached garage, which was unfinished, you could see the lap siding thru the plywood sheathing and the individual tabs of the 3 tab shingles thru the roof decking. I guess the conditions were just right for this.

Chris, Oregon

[Scottpat]

Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

How do you know it's water and not the shadow of the deck?

The siding board at the ledger is visibly damaged (swelling, checking, mold, soft to probing). There are moistures stains, elevated moisture readings and swell patterns that indicate water is coming from above at the ledger all which were correlating with the IR images.

It was easy to see visually what was going on. The IR is just helping image the problem.

Another interesting thing was in the detached garage, which was unfinished, you could see the lap siding thru the plywood sheathing and the individual tabs of the 3 tab shingles thru the roof decking. I guess the conditions were just right for this.

Chris, Oregon

Did a moisture meter show higher levels of moisture on the interior drywall or in the wall cavity?

[randynavarro]

I'm still curious as to what you reported.

[Chris Bernhardt]

Did a moisture meter show higher levels of moisture on the interior drywall or in the wall cavity?

In this case, No

This is how I wrote it up -

Moisture/rot damaged siding

The hardboard lap siding on the entire house and garage is moisture and rot damaged. The siding on the south sides particularly so and even more so at the deck ledger, which doesn’t look to be properly fastened and flashed to the house.

Replace the siding on the house and the garage. Contact a siding contractor or two and get options and costs. Have the deck ledgers properly installed and flashed into the building. There is most probably damage past the siding at or below the ledger so be prepared to get this fixed also.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

Not bad.

Would it be better to say (paraphrased) "open up the wall, because my machinery is telling me you very likely have rot in the wall and it may need rebuilding"?

IOW, I'm wondering about verbiage that reflects the findings of the tool.

Thoughts?

[Bain]

Originally posted by kurt

Not bad.

Would it be better to say (paraphrased) "open up the wall, because my machinery is telling me you very likely have rot in the wall and it may need rebuilding"?

IOW, I'm wondering about verbiage that reflects the findings of the tool.

Thoughts?

I'm not being contentious, but therein lies one of the problems. What if the buyer asks the seller to address the damage pre-closing? What if a wall is opened up and there's no damage to be repaired? Suzy Seller may tell HI guy that he has to pay for putting her house back together because he was wrong.

[Chris Bernhardt]

IOW, I'm wondering about verbiage that reflects the findings of the tool.

Flir makes it very clear, in the cameras operating guide, that anomalies should be otherwise confirmed and not form the basis of a decision point.

Yesterday I saw something odd in the field of a living room wall. I hit it with my moisture meter which indicated positive. What I found upon further visual investigation was that a 4"x4" fence post was lag bolted thru the siding into the wall at that point. I could have been just sensing the bolt with the moisture meter or some moisture wicking in along the bolt and wetting the insulation in contact with the drywall.

I think things like this can be sorted out, but it's going to take some experimenting. As soon as I get some time I have another series of experiments that I want to conduct.

I'm not being contentious, but therein lies one of the problems. What if the buyer asks the seller to address the damage pre-closing? What if a wall is opened up and there's no damage to be repaired? Suzy Seller may tell HI guy that he has to pay for putting her house back together because he was wrong.

Thats why I don't put much value on those $1000 a piece IR classes. As I said before we need the Jim Katens, the Kurt M.s and Hausdoks of our biz to guide us in the cameras proper use. The protocols haven't even been developed yet. For example you find an anomaly then what? how do you go about confirming what it is and if it's important? Right now I make a more focused visual inspection of the area, use my moisture meter etc. But the moisture meters are limited and I suspect there are some tricks that we're going to find to weed out what the anomaly is without getting invasive but that is not going to come from the current crop of guys out there teaching the IR classes. It's going to come from our own ranks.

Chris, Oregon

[Bain]

You're absolutely right, Chris. Experience is the best teacher of all, but the learning curve can also be sadly expensive if we make mistakes.

How often do we find water damage in unfinished basements beneath doors, behind decks, or where the exterior grade is screwed up? What if the basement is finished and the IR camera uncovers moisture in these same areas? Is there a means by which to distinguish condensation from wholesale water infiltration when checking out the IR color gradations?